Comments on: The Car of the Future: Plug-in Hybrids http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:24:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1 By: Wesley http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-3147 Wesley Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:44:54 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-3147 "If the electricity used to power plug-ins comes from relatively CO2-free sources such as wind, solar, or nuclear power, then plug-ins can be considerably cleaner than conventional hybrids. But if the electricity comes from traditional coal-fired power plants, then plug-in hybrids are no cleaner from a climate perspective than today’s conventional hybrids." According to Tesla Motors, a startup electric car company in California, electricity from power plants is more efficiently transfered and used in electric drive vehicles (including pure EVs and PHEVs), resulting in a decreased environmental impact (see their white paper here: http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/21stCentElectricCar.pdf ). Although charging with renewable power has a smaller impact than charging with fossil fuels, charging with fossil fuels still has a smaller impact than burning them in an internal combustion engine. My conclusion: electric vehicles make sense now, even with our currently dirty power plants. “If the electricity used to power plug-ins comes from relatively CO2-free sources such as wind, solar, or nuclear power, then plug-ins can be considerably cleaner than conventional hybrids. But if the electricity comes from traditional coal-fired power plants, then plug-in hybrids are no cleaner from a climate perspective than today’s conventional hybrids.”

According to Tesla Motors, a startup electric car company in California, electricity from power plants is more efficiently transfered and used in electric drive vehicles (including pure EVs and PHEVs), resulting in a decreased environmental impact (see their white paper here: http://www.teslamotors.com/ display_data/ 21stCentElectricCar.pdf ). Although charging with renewable power has a smaller impact than charging with fossil fuels, charging with fossil fuels still has a smaller impact than burning them in an internal combustion engine.

My conclusion: electric vehicles make sense now, even with our currently dirty power plants.

]]> By: Earl Killian http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-3307 Earl Killian Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:13:01 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-3307 What Wesley said is not 100% accurate; rather the original comment was correct. Neither a PHEV (plug-in hybrid) nor a BEV (battery electric vehicle) charged from 100% coal electricity is cleaner than a pure hybrid. Charged from the U.S. electric grid average however, both are cleaner than a pure hybrid. Think of it this way: a BEV (or a PHEV when running electric-only) is 4-5x more efficient than an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle of the same form factor. Example: a RAV4-EV is 4.3x time more efficient than a RAV4. Tossing in the efficiency of the power plant and the refinery brings this 4-5x down to 1.6-3x. An HEV (hybrid electric vehicle) or a PHEV running gasoline only is about 1.5x as efficient as a pure ICE. Example: Honda Civic Hybrid vs. Honda Civic. That leaves a BEV being about 1-2x the efficiency of an HEV. That sounds good, but coal has 1.4x the CO2 output per energy content compared to gasoline, and coal power plants are generally at the lower end of the efficiency range (I think 44% is the highest on record, whereas natural gas plants are at 60%). This basically makes the HEV (or PHEV) running off of gasoline even or slightly better than the BEV (or PHEV) running off of coal electricity. Basically coal is about as dirty as EVs are efficient. It is an ugly fact. Since coal burning produces 1.8 or 1.9 gigatons of CO2 per year in the U.S. and gasoline produces only 1.2 gigatons, doing something to get rid of coal is the most important thing we can do as a nation to stop melting the planet. Once we get rid of coal, EVs look really good! Be careful about citing the Tesla whitepaper. It considers only Natural Gas as a fuel source. This is particularly favorable for electricity, since NG power plants have up to 60% efficiency (in fact Tesla assumes this efficiency). It therefore ignores the realities of the U.S. grid. Don't get me wrong; I am an EV fan (I'm on the board of the Electric Auto Association) and my household has two EVs in the garage. We prefer to drive our EVs (in our case they are solar powered from the PV on our roof). We fire up the planetkillers in our garage (e.g. our Prius) only when necessary. I just like to make sure people don't overstate the case for EVs, for example by saying that even a coal-powered EV is better than a gasoline-powered hybrid. What Wesley said is not 100% accurate; rather the original comment was correct. Neither a PHEV (plug-in hybrid) nor a BEV (battery electric vehicle) charged from 100% coal electricity is cleaner than a pure hybrid. Charged from the U.S. electric grid average however, both are cleaner than a pure hybrid.

Think of it this way: a BEV (or a PHEV when running electric-only) is 4-5x more efficient than an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle of the same form factor. Example: a RAV4-EV is 4.3x time more efficient than a RAV4. Tossing in the efficiency of the power plant and the refinery brings this 4-5x down to 1.6-3x. An HEV (hybrid electric vehicle) or a PHEV running gasoline only is about 1.5x as efficient as a pure ICE. Example: Honda Civic Hybrid vs. Honda Civic. That leaves a BEV being about 1-2x the efficiency of an HEV. That sounds good, but coal has 1.4x the CO2 output per energy content compared to gasoline, and coal power plants are generally at the lower end of the efficiency range (I think 44% is the highest on record, whereas natural gas plants are at 60%). This basically makes the HEV (or PHEV) running off of gasoline even or slightly better than the BEV (or PHEV) running off of coal electricity.

Basically coal is about as dirty as EVs are efficient. It is an ugly fact. Since coal burning produces 1.8 or 1.9 gigatons of CO2 per year in the U.S. and gasoline produces only 1.2 gigatons, doing something to get rid of coal is the most important thing we can do as a nation to stop melting the planet. Once we get rid of coal, EVs look really good!

Be careful about citing the Tesla whitepaper. It considers only Natural Gas as a fuel source. This is particularly favorable for electricity, since NG power plants have up to 60% efficiency (in fact Tesla assumes this efficiency). It therefore ignores the realities of the U.S. grid.

Don’t get me wrong; I am an EV fan (I’m on the board of the Electric Auto Association) and my household has two EVs in the garage. We prefer to drive our EVs (in our case they are solar powered from the PV on our roof). We fire up the planetkillers in our garage (e.g. our Prius) only when necessary. I just like to make sure people don’t overstate the case for EVs, for example by saying that even a coal-powered EV is better than a gasoline-powered hybrid.

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]]> By: Damien Simeone http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-6721 Damien Simeone Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:07:50 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-6721 Where and soon can I buy a plug in hybrid ? I live in San Diego, Ca. I am looking for quality and value. I want a large and safe sedan. Where and soon can I buy a plug in hybrid ? I live in San Diego, Ca. I am looking for quality and value. I want a large and safe sedan.

]]> By: Joe http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-6725 Joe Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:07:17 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-6725 You'll have to wait at least 3 years for quality and value, I think. You’ll have to wait at least 3 years for quality and value, I think.

]]> By: RICK BADMAN http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-6878 RICK BADMAN Sat, 24 Nov 2007 05:58:49 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-6878 I would use water as the source of hydrogen and oxygen for either an internal combustion engine or steam engine. Plasma igniters, electromagnetic field manipulation systems, and concentrated solar energy could ignite the water. There would be no need for a fuel cell or hydrogen refueling devices. Personally, I favor the development of stacked flywheel storage systems that have a complete vacuum with either liquid coolant or forced air cooling of the motor/generator sandwiched between the flywheel units. A goal of 100 watt-hours per cubic inch of material would allow two stacked units in the trunk as the primary energy sources in a mid-sized car the ability to power the car nonstop from New York to Chicago. Even planes could use stacked flywheel units by using either motor-driven turbine shaft engines or electromagnetic field compression which would allow the plane to travel from the ground out into space without needing to switch engines. The range for flywheel-powered planes may exceed that of conventional planes and energy costs would be a fraction of what they are now which means ticket prices could be lower and safety would be increased since no fuel would be burnt. Even water-fueled engines that use flywheels to generate the plasma for the igniters wouldn't explode or burn if they crashed. I would use water as the source of hydrogen and oxygen for either an internal combustion engine or steam engine. Plasma igniters, electromagnetic field manipulation systems, and concentrated solar energy could ignite the water. There would be no need for a fuel cell or hydrogen refueling devices. Personally, I favor the development of stacked flywheel storage systems that have a complete vacuum with either liquid coolant or forced air cooling of the motor/generator sandwiched between the flywheel units. A goal of 100 watt-hours per cubic inch of material would allow two stacked units in the trunk as the primary energy sources in a mid-sized car the ability to power the car nonstop from New York to Chicago. Even planes could use stacked flywheel units by using either motor-driven turbine shaft engines or electromagnetic field compression which would allow the plane to travel from the ground out into space without needing to switch engines. The range for flywheel-powered planes may exceed that of conventional planes and energy costs would be a fraction of what they are now which means ticket prices could be lower and safety would be increased since no fuel would be burnt. Even water-fueled engines that use flywheels to generate the plasma for the igniters wouldn’t explode or burn if they crashed.

]]> By: anon http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-6892 anon Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:04:42 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-6892 Articles like this one that treat transportation CO2 emissions only as a technological problem mystify me. Existing fleets in Japan, Europe and elsewhere are more fuel efficient because the vehicles are lighter and tuned for efficiency instead of power. We could all drive Kei Jidosha and save ourselves a bundle while dramatically reducing our carbon emissions, except that they aren't for sale, regulations are stacked against them, and most North American consumers don't want them. Articles like this one that treat transportation CO2 emissions only as a technological problem mystify me. Existing fleets in Japan, Europe and elsewhere are more fuel efficient because the vehicles are lighter and tuned for efficiency instead of power. We could all drive Kei Jidosha and save ourselves a bundle while dramatically reducing our carbon emissions, except that they aren’t for sale, regulations are stacked against them, and most North American consumers don’t want them.

]]> By: Klaus D. Beccu, Ph.D. http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-7107 Klaus D. Beccu, Ph.D. Wed, 05 Dec 2007 23:40:43 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-7107 see my comment to the BBC interview related to the general problem of using electrochemical power sources with their low voltage in electric traction use (hybrids or Plug-ins) - applicable also to fuel cells, but with less problems than rechargeable batteries (no charge/discharge cycle occurs). see my comment to the BBC interview related to the general problem of using electrochemical power sources with their low voltage in electric traction use (hybrids or Plug-ins) - applicable also to fuel cells, but with less problems than rechargeable batteries (no charge/discharge cycle occurs).

]]> By: film izle http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-18913 film izle Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:24:30 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-18913 Think of it this way: a BEV (or a PHEV when running electric-only) is 4-5x more efficient than an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle of the same form factor. Example: a RAV4-EV is 4.3x time more efficient than a RAV4. Tossing in the efficiency of the power plant and the refinery brings this 4-5x down to 1.6-3x. An HEV (hybrid electric vehicle) or a PHEV running gasoline only is about 1.5x as efficient as a pure ICE. Example: Honda Civic Hybrid vs. Honda Civic. That leaves a BEV being about 1-2x the efficiency of an HEV. That sounds good, but coal has 1.4x the CO2 output per energy content compared to gasoline, and coal power plants are generally at the lower end of the efficiency range (I think 44% is the highest on record, whereas natural gas plants are at 60%). This basically makes the HEV (or PHEV) running off of gasoline even or slightly better than the BEV (or PHEV) running off of coal electricity. Think of it this way: a BEV (or a PHEV when running electric-only) is 4-5x more efficient than an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle of the same form factor. Example: a RAV4-EV is 4.3x time more efficient than a RAV4. Tossing in the efficiency of the power plant and the refinery brings this 4-5x down to 1.6-3x. An HEV (hybrid electric vehicle) or a PHEV running gasoline only is about 1.5x as efficient as a pure ICE. Example: Honda Civic Hybrid vs. Honda Civic. That leaves a BEV being about 1-2x the efficiency of an HEV. That sounds good, but coal has 1.4x the CO2 output per energy content compared to gasoline, and coal power plants are generally at the lower end of the efficiency range (I think 44% is the highest on record, whereas natural gas plants are at 60%). This basically makes the HEV (or PHEV) running off of gasoline even or slightly better than the BEV (or PHEV) running off of coal electricity.

]]> By: şarkı sözleri http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-18914 şarkı sözleri Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:24:52 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/03/07/the-car-of-the-future-plug-in-hybrids/#comment-18914 Don’t get me wrong; I am an EV fan (I’m on the board of the Electric Auto Association) and my household has two EVs in the garage. We prefer to drive our EVs (in our case they are solar powered from the PV on our roof). We fire up the planetkillers in our garage (e.g. our Prius) only when necessary. I just like to make sure people don’t overstate the case for EVs, for example by saying that even a coal-powered EV is better than a gasoline-powered hybrid. Don’t get me wrong; I am an EV fan (I’m on the board of the Electric Auto Association) and my household has two EVs in the garage. We prefer to drive our EVs (in our case they are solar powered from the PV on our roof). We fire up the planetkillers in our garage (e.g. our Prius) only when necessary. I just like to make sure people don’t overstate the case for EVs, for example by saying that even a coal-powered EV is better than a gasoline-powered hybrid.

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