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	<title>Comments on: Are Scientists Overestimating &#8212; or Underestimating &#8212; Climate Change, Part I</title>
	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1</generator>

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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5256</link>
		<author>Cliff</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5256</guid>
					<description>Unfortunately, all the Denyers need is an excuse to throw more statements of doubt into the public media pool. To most people, the prospect of catastrophic climate change is a bad dream they'd just as soon wake up from, and the Denyers offer them that escape route -- "Ah. I can stop worrying now."

In "The Bourne Ultimatum" Scott Glenn plays the CIA Director, a corrupt but coldly practical man. Bad as he is, he makes one statement that is spot on for climate change scenarios:

Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. 

If we don't plan that way, hindsight from 50 years hence won't provide us any comfort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, all the Denyers need is an excuse to throw more statements of doubt into the public media pool. To most people, the prospect of catastrophic climate change is a bad dream they&#8217;d just as soon wake up from, and the Denyers offer them that escape route &#8212; &#8220;Ah. I can stop worrying now.&#8221;</p>
<p>In &#8220;The Bourne Ultimatum&#8221; Scott Glenn plays the CIA Director, a corrupt but coldly practical man. Bad as he is, he makes one statement that is spot on for climate change scenarios:</p>
<p>Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. </p>
<p>If we don&#8217;t plan that way, hindsight from 50 years hence won&#8217;t provide us any comfort.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Kvisle</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5259</link>
		<author>Kevin Kvisle</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5259</guid>
					<description>If only they applied the same standard to the fake war on terror as they do for global warming, we would see some of that security spending being used to reduce emissions. This is not necessarily my own thought, I just want it to become a well known retort to the corporate humps denials.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If only they applied the same standard to the fake war on terror as they do for global warming, we would see some of that security spending being used to reduce emissions. This is not necessarily my own thought, I just want it to become a well known retort to the corporate humps denials.</p>
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		<title>By: Daryl T</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5267</link>
		<author>Daryl T</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5267</guid>
					<description>Joe,

I have one question for you. If the scientists are underestimating Anthropogenic Global Warming, as you believe. What are you actually prepared to do about it?
It seems to me if we are facing the level of calamity that is being dicussed, the old CFL and Hybrid really are not going to cut it. 
We need a complete shut down of all CO2 emissions by 2025 so we can start a cycle of reduction not sustainability, as CO2 has 200 year atmospheric lifespan, leaving the earth in an elevated temperature, such as the sustainable levels of 550ppm suggested by the IPCC, will cause all the same disasters just in the next generation (maybe this one). 
Ice will not stop melting at the new temperature, storms will not subside, droughts will not disappear. So would you a writer and advocate of AGW put pen to paper in your Blog and advocate the complete elimination of CO2 emissions from all fossil fuels by 2025, with all the implications that will come with said stance? If not, then are you saying the effects of AGW do not warrant this action and it is not the single biggest threat to the planet we have ever faced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,</p>
<p>I have one question for you. If the scientists are underestimating Anthropogenic Global Warming, as you believe. What are you actually prepared to do about it?<br />
It seems to me if we are facing the level of calamity that is being dicussed, the old CFL and Hybrid really are not going to cut it.<br />
We need a complete shut down of all CO2 emissions by 2025 so we can start a cycle of reduction not sustainability, as CO2 has 200 year atmospheric lifespan, leaving the earth in an elevated temperature, such as the sustainable levels of 550ppm suggested by the IPCC, will cause all the same disasters just in the next generation (maybe this one).<br />
Ice will not stop melting at the new temperature, storms will not subside, droughts will not disappear. So would you a writer and advocate of AGW put pen to paper in your Blog and advocate the complete elimination of CO2 emissions from all fossil fuels by 2025, with all the implications that will come with said stance? If not, then are you saying the effects of AGW do not warrant this action and it is not the single biggest threat to the planet we have ever faced.</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5272</link>
		<author>john</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 13:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5272</guid>
					<description>Another oak stake in the heart of the denyer's is that this experiment has been run several times in the geologic past, and each time it reveals a real empirical sensitivity on the extreme upper range of what we're projecting.

One of the most thoroughly studied of these, the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, was inititated by an unusually active period of volcanic activity.  Using isotope analysis we can trace the amount of carbon introduced and its rate.  

The PETM was catastrophic -- sea level rise was more than 20 meters; extincition rates were off the charts.  And yet we are introducing carbon into the atmosphere at more than 30 times the rate that volcanic activity did back then.  

Hansen cites other examples of warming in the geologic record and notes the consequences of that warming was far worse than IPCC projections.

At some point when the experiment keeps yeilding the same results, isn't it time to chuck the models and deal with reality? Or at least adjust them so they reflect reality? 

And one last note:  I can see some denyer pointing to these geologic incidents and saying, "See, it's natural; it's all happened before, so we don't need to worry."

Well, here's the deal:  the real question is what happens when human-induced warming ocurrs on top of one of these cycles?  We don't have the vocabularly to describe this -- it's a nightmare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another oak stake in the heart of the denyer&#8217;s is that this experiment has been run several times in the geologic past, and each time it reveals a real empirical sensitivity on the extreme upper range of what we&#8217;re projecting.</p>
<p>One of the most thoroughly studied of these, the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, was inititated by an unusually active period of volcanic activity.  Using isotope analysis we can trace the amount of carbon introduced and its rate.  </p>
<p>The PETM was catastrophic &#8212; sea level rise was more than 20 meters; extincition rates were off the charts.  And yet we are introducing carbon into the atmosphere at more than 30 times the rate that volcanic activity did back then.  </p>
<p>Hansen cites other examples of warming in the geologic record and notes the consequences of that warming was far worse than IPCC projections.</p>
<p>At some point when the experiment keeps yeilding the same results, isn&#8217;t it time to chuck the models and deal with reality? Or at least adjust them so they reflect reality? </p>
<p>And one last note:  I can see some denyer pointing to these geologic incidents and saying, &#8220;See, it&#8217;s natural; it&#8217;s all happened before, so we don&#8217;t need to worry.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, here&#8217;s the deal:  the real question is what happens when human-induced warming ocurrs on top of one of these cycles?  We don&#8217;t have the vocabularly to describe this &#8212; it&#8217;s a nightmare.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5277</link>
		<author>Joe</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5277</guid>
					<description>Daryl:
I don't think we need complete elimination of CO2 emissions from fossil fuels by 2025, but I do think we need to stay at 450 ppm or less, so we need an 80% reduction by 2050 -- and that could include carbon capture and storage, if that proves practical and feasible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daryl:<br />
I don&#8217;t think we need complete elimination of CO2 emissions from fossil fuels by 2025, but I do think we need to stay at 450 ppm or less, so we need an 80% reduction by 2050 &#8212; and that could include carbon capture and storage, if that proves practical and feasible.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5288</link>
		<author>Ron</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 04:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5288</guid>
					<description>Over or under estimating isn't the point. When the climate doesn't behave the way a model predicts it means the model is flawed. It doesn't tell you why, it only means that the scientists who designed the model didn't fully understand climate. 

We are a long way from fully understanding how climate works. Real scientists will tell you the same thing. Even most of the devout AGW believers admit to a lot of uncertainty.

I'm not saying the failure of an arctic sea ice model or hurricane season model is proof that AGW is a farce. In fact, you can't use an inaccurate model as proof of anything.

Come on, guys. Let's do some scientific thinking here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over or under estimating isn&#8217;t the point. When the climate doesn&#8217;t behave the way a model predicts it means the model is flawed. It doesn&#8217;t tell you why, it only means that the scientists who designed the model didn&#8217;t fully understand climate. </p>
<p>We are a long way from fully understanding how climate works. Real scientists will tell you the same thing. Even most of the devout AGW believers admit to a lot of uncertainty.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying the failure of an arctic sea ice model or hurricane season model is proof that AGW is a farce. In fact, you can&#8217;t use an inaccurate model as proof of anything.</p>
<p>Come on, guys. Let&#8217;s do some scientific thinking here.</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5357</link>
		<author>robert</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 03:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5357</guid>
					<description>Ron, I don't think the point here is whether or not the models are getting all of the details right - of course they're not!  From a policy perspective, the issue is risk management.  

I wouldn't bet my savings that the models have it right; but more importantly, I wouldn't bet my savings that they're wrong.  But by refusing to take meaningful action, that's exactly what we're doing:  betting the farm that the models are wrong - when there's ample reason to believe they're getting it essentially right.  I hope they're wrong (on the high side).  But from a risk management perspective, I'm going to behave as though they're right.  And the beauty of it is, it's a no-regret approach: we come out on the other end with cleaner, renewable energy.   What's the down side?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron, I don&#8217;t think the point here is whether or not the models are getting all of the details right - of course they&#8217;re not!  From a policy perspective, the issue is risk management.  </p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t bet my savings that the models have it right; but more importantly, I wouldn&#8217;t bet my savings that they&#8217;re wrong.  But by refusing to take meaningful action, that&#8217;s exactly what we&#8217;re doing:  betting the farm that the models are wrong - when there&#8217;s ample reason to believe they&#8217;re getting it essentially right.  I hope they&#8217;re wrong (on the high side).  But from a risk management perspective, I&#8217;m going to behave as though they&#8217;re right.  And the beauty of it is, it&#8217;s a no-regret approach: we come out on the other end with cleaner, renewable energy.   What&#8217;s the down side?</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5603</link>
		<author>Jacob</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5603</guid>
					<description>"But by refusing to take meaningful action"
What meaningful action ?
Declaring we won't exceed 450 ppm CO2 ? Declaring is fine, but what do you do ?
Research ? It's being done. We don't have solutions yet. We cannot know when there will be. 
Carbon sequestration ? No yet clear it will work, and how much it will cost. Won't be around until 2025...

The Government can prohibit the opening of new power plants, or refineries, or steel mills, that's something that &lt;strong&gt;can&lt;/strong&gt; be done. As a consequence - people will suffer blackouts, and will install home generators, producing 3 times the CO2 saved. And will use Chinese steel... no carbon reduction here....

I know Joe has written a book on it. Writing books is the easy part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But by refusing to take meaningful action&#8221;<br />
What meaningful action ?<br />
Declaring we won&#8217;t exceed 450 ppm CO2 ? Declaring is fine, but what do you do ?<br />
Research ? It&#8217;s being done. We don&#8217;t have solutions yet. We cannot know when there will be.<br />
Carbon sequestration ? No yet clear it will work, and how much it will cost. Won&#8217;t be around until 2025&#8230;</p>
<p>The Government can prohibit the opening of new power plants, or refineries, or steel mills, that&#8217;s something that <strong>can</strong> be done. As a consequence - people will suffer blackouts, and will install home generators, producing 3 times the CO2 saved. And will use Chinese steel&#8230; no carbon reduction here&#8230;.</p>
<p>I know Joe has written a book on it. Writing books is the easy part.</p>
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		<title>By: Hank Roberts</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5682</link>
		<author>Hank Roberts</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/21/are-scientists-overestimating-or-underestimating-climate-change-part-i/#comment-5682</guid>
					<description>Joe, as a favor to readers, could you please put

  Part I     Part II     Part III

or "First" and "Last" and "Next" and "Previous" or something -- as links at top and bottom of the multiple page articles, to make it easy to get the whole article and read back and forth? Rereading helps comprehension.

With this one, the one link to "next" at the bottom of parts I and II is hard to find and only one-way navigation, unless I miss something.   This would be a kindness for all multiple-page articles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, as a favor to readers, could you please put</p>
<p>  Part I     Part II     Part III</p>
<p>or &#8220;First&#8221; and &#8220;Last&#8221; and &#8220;Next&#8221; and &#8220;Previous&#8221; or something &#8212; as links at top and bottom of the multiple page articles, to make it easy to get the whole article and read back and forth? Rereading helps comprehension.</p>
<p>With this one, the one link to &#8220;next&#8221; at the bottom of parts I and II is hard to find and only one-way navigation, unless I miss something.   This would be a kindness for all multiple-page articles.</p>
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