Comments on: Prius easily beats Hummer in life-cycle energy use, “Dust to Dust” report has no basis in fact http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Thu, 04 Dec 2008 01:51:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1 By: Cliff http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5364 Cliff Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:55:40 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5364 "...no one could believe all this. Could they?" Therein lies the problem. “…no one could believe all this. Could they?”

Therein lies the problem.

]]> By: Paul K http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5365 Paul K Mon, 27 Aug 2007 16:40:34 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5365 $140,000 in recyclable energy costs will generate $160,000 to $220,000 in net revenue to recyclers” Can't wait to show this to boys at the local junkyard. $140,000 in recyclable energy costs will generate $160,000 to $220,000 in net revenue to recyclers”
Can’t wait to show this to boys at the local junkyard.

]]> By: Shannon http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5367 Shannon Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:34:12 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5367 I am sure that the Hummer also saves greenhouse gas emissions because the it will break down a lot sooner from all of the offroading than the Prius, which, trust me, is not a good vehicle for offroading AT ALL. I am sure that the Hummer also saves greenhouse gas emissions because the it will break down a lot sooner from all of the offroading than the Prius, which, trust me, is not a good vehicle for offroading AT ALL.

]]> By: Somender http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5375 Somender Mon, 27 Aug 2007 23:43:10 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5375 There are technologies being ignored by Big Auto that actually could bring a Hummer's operation costs in line with a Prius' A simple aftermarket modification called a 'Groove' reduces fuel use, oil waste and emissions simply by increasing the turbulence inside the combustion cylinder. http://www.somender-singh.com There are technologies being ignored by Big Auto that actually could bring a Hummer’s operation costs in line with a Prius’

A simple aftermarket modification called a ‘Groove’ reduces fuel use, oil waste and emissions simply by increasing the turbulence inside the combustion cylinder.

http://www.somender-singh.com

]]> By: blt http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5388 blt Tue, 28 Aug 2007 05:31:56 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5388 Hard to believe that anyone believes this, but they do in Idaho. (and check out what's on (Larry) Craig's list) http://www.idahovaluesalliance.com/news.asp?id=481 Hard to believe that anyone believes this, but they do in Idaho. (and check out what’s on (Larry) Craig’s list)

http://www.idahovaluesalliance.com/news.asp?id=481

]]> By: blt http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5389 blt Tue, 28 Aug 2007 05:34:09 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5389 Apparent;y George Will does too! http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/GeorgeWill/2007/04/12/the_media_and_global_warming Apparent;y George Will does too!

http://www.townhall.com/ Columnists/ GeorgeWill/ 2007/ 04/ 12/ the_media_and_global_warming

]]> By: Earl Killian http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5395 Earl Killian Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:24:04 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5395 Thank you Joe for posting your analysis and that of PI and RMI. To add to the list, there is also this page: http://www.betterworldclub.com/articles/hummer-not-more-efficient.htm which is less detailed than the above, but perhaps more accessible for some. Thank you Joe for posting your analysis and that of PI and RMI. To add to the list, there is also this page:
http://www.betterworldclub.com/ articles/ hummer-not-more-efficient.htm
which is less detailed than the above, but perhaps more accessible for some.

]]> By: Tom http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5464 Tom Sun, 02 Sep 2007 12:48:48 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5464 I'm less concerned about the life-cycle energy use of a Prius than I am about the much larger amounts of energy it will take to build and power hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, the darlings of the uninformed. And don't forget the quantities of dihydrogen monoxide that will be spewed into the environment - by design - that doesn't seem to bother anyone. I’m less concerned about the life-cycle energy use of a Prius than I am about the much larger amounts of energy it will take to build and power hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, the darlings of the uninformed. And don’t forget the quantities of dihydrogen monoxide that will be spewed into the environment - by design - that doesn’t seem to bother anyone.

]]> By: Jerry http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5580 Jerry Mon, 10 Sep 2007 01:43:02 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5580 The recycling of the nickel used in the NiMh battery is currently not practical. However, if the economics are behind them, people will usually find a way. See article below. http://www.carlist.com/autonews/2005/autonews_94.html The recycling of the nickel used in the NiMh battery is currently not practical. However, if the economics are behind them, people will usually find a way. See article below.

http://www.carlist.com/ autonews/ 2005/ autonews_94.html

]]> By: climatecriminal http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5601 climatecriminal Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:59:01 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5601 Regarding Prius offroading. There is often made a claim that SUVs are all used for offroading is patently ridiculous. Here in Surrey in the UK, there are a significant number of offroad vehicles. The majority of which do as much offroading as a Prius. This will comprise visiting the local supermarket and the local school-run, which often involved driving partially onto the side walk. I've done more offroading than many of these SUVs, and I've never owned or driven anything but two-wheel drive cars. Regarding Prius offroading. There is often made a claim that SUVs are all used for offroading is patently ridiculous. Here in Surrey in the UK, there are a significant number of offroad vehicles. The majority of which do as much offroading as a Prius. This will comprise visiting the local supermarket and the local school-run, which often involved driving partially onto the side walk. I’ve done more offroading than many of these SUVs, and I’ve never owned or driven anything but two-wheel drive cars.

]]> By: climatecriminal http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5602 climatecriminal Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:02:22 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5602 Perhaps Tom does not know that DiHydrogen Monoxide is found in every living thing and in large quantities in the ocean, most soils, the polar ice and the atmosphere. It is of course harmless, because it's common name is water! Perhaps Tom does not know that DiHydrogen Monoxide is found in every living thing and in large quantities in the ocean, most soils, the polar ice and the atmosphere. It is of course harmless, because it’s common name is water!

]]> By: youdontgetit http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5715 youdontgetit Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:31:05 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5715 the vast majority of people purchase big cars, trucks and SUV's for ROOM, not for off roading. SUV's carry ALOT more 'stuff' than small fuel efficient cars. So now let's get off the 'most people who buy SUV's don't even take them off road' ignorance kick. I drive a crew cab truck, and use 3/4 of the crew cab 100% of the time it's driven. The bed only gets used occasionally, but still it's hard to beat when I need it. the vast majority of people purchase big cars, trucks and SUV’s for ROOM, not for off roading. SUV’s carry ALOT more ’stuff’ than small fuel efficient cars. So now let’s get off the ‘most people who buy SUV’s don’t even take them off road’ ignorance kick. I drive a crew cab truck, and use 3/4 of the crew cab 100% of the time it’s driven. The bed only gets used occasionally, but still it’s hard to beat when I need it.

]]> By: Bruce http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5829 Bruce Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:44:28 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-5829 In response to Jerry regarding the recycling of nickel in NiMH batteries, I was told years ago by Inmetco (http://www.inmetco.com/) that before Toyota began marketing the Prius in North America,Toyota came to them to reassure itself that Prius batteries could be recycled. The answer for Prius batteries (and for all nickel chemistry batteries - see Rechargeable Battery Recycling Coalition: http://www.rbrc.org/call2recycle/) is yes. The Prius battery contains about 10 kilos of nickel which means that at end-of-life (currently guaranteed for 8 years; Honda guarantees its batteries for 10 years; Toyota plans an expected average lifetime of 12 years) the nickel will, at current prices of $25,000/tonne, have a positive economic value. The recyclers will pay to take the battery. The nickel/nickel iron that is produced will usually be sold to the stainless steel industry. The NiMH battery will be replaced in new cars in a few years by a lithium chemistry battery of some sort (there are many varieties) because they have higher energy density and thus less volume and less weight for their function. The (modest) downside will be a lower end-of-life value. In response to Jerry regarding the recycling of nickel in NiMH batteries, I was told years ago by Inmetco (http://www.inmetco.com/) that before Toyota began marketing the Prius in North America,Toyota came to them to reassure itself that Prius batteries could be recycled. The answer for Prius batteries (and for all nickel chemistry batteries - see Rechargeable Battery Recycling Coalition: http://www.rbrc.org/call2recycle/) is yes.

The Prius battery contains about 10 kilos of nickel which means that at end-of-life (currently guaranteed for 8 years; Honda guarantees its batteries for 10 years; Toyota plans an expected average lifetime of 12 years) the nickel will, at current prices of $25,000/tonne, have a positive economic value. The recyclers will pay to take the battery. The nickel/nickel iron that is produced will usually be sold to the stainless steel industry.

The NiMH battery will be replaced in new cars in a few years by a lithium chemistry battery of some sort (there are many varieties) because they have higher energy density and thus less volume and less weight for their function. The (modest) downside will be a lower end-of-life value.

]]> By: Chris http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-14521 Chris Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:28:06 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-14521 "That $140,000 in recyclable energy costs will generate $160,000 to $220,000 in net revenue to recyclers." With a new value of $20,000, this means that the Prius is worth: Between $160,000/$20,000 to $220,000 $20,000 i.e. 8 to 11 times its original purchase prise as scrap! Idle thought, wouldn't this make the Prius non-profit making for Toyota? Presumably, scrap dealers are investing in Prius' and making a killing in the scrap value! Or to put it another way, is this reflected in the sales figures, Prius must be flying off the shelves! Erm - I don't think so. Clearly, CNW's report Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles From Concept to Disposal, The non-technical report, wasn't checked for errors, and it seems it was written by talented idiots. “That $140,000 in recyclable energy costs will generate $160,000 to $220,000 in net revenue to recyclers.”
With a new value of $20,000, this means that the Prius is worth:
Between $160,000/$20,000 to $220,000 $20,000 i.e. 8 to 11 times its original purchase prise as scrap! Idle thought, wouldn’t this make the Prius non-profit making for Toyota?

Presumably, scrap dealers are investing in Prius’ and making a killing in the scrap value! Or to put it another way, is this reflected in the sales figures, Prius must be flying off the shelves!

Erm - I don’t think so. Clearly, CNW’s report Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles From Concept to Disposal, The non-technical report, wasn’t checked for errors, and it seems it was written by talented idiots.

]]> By: Climate Criminal http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-14522 Climate Criminal Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:44:28 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-14522 Hopefully, the morons and knuckleheads who feel the need to drive SUVs like the Hummer will now be feeling the pinch! Yes in the UK we have such idiots too! But with gasoline costing £1.25 a litre, that's $10.06 per gallon US, they won't be driving far. It will cost them $321.91 to fill up! Hopefully, the morons and knuckleheads who feel the need to drive SUVs like the Hummer will now be feeling the pinch! Yes in the UK we have such idiots too! But with gasoline costing £1.25 a litre, that’s $10.06 per gallon US, they won’t be driving far. It will cost them $321.91 to fill up!

]]> By: Sam K http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-14769 Sam K Sun, 22 Jun 2008 00:19:11 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-14769 The costs mentioned in the report are not the actual costs to anyones wallet, but the environmental costs/impact of all the energy and materials used to design, make and run etc. the vehicle from when someone first had the initial idea for the vehicle to when it is scrapped. The costs mentioned in the report are not the actual costs to anyones wallet, but the environmental costs/impact of all the energy and materials used to design, make and run etc. the vehicle from when someone first had the initial idea for the vehicle to when it is scrapped.

]]> By: Sam K http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-14772 Sam K Sun, 22 Jun 2008 00:23:39 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-14772 A lot of the comments and reviws I've seen seem to have missed this fact. They converted this to dollars because everyone understands them and they are more tangable than joules and Kw etc. A lot of the comments and reviws I’ve seen seem to have missed this fact.
They converted this to dollars because everyone understands them and they are more tangable than joules and Kw etc.

]]> By: JimF http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-18171 JimF Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:18:50 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-18171 i don't want to defend the original study, because I don't know the calculations taht went into it, but i believe commenter SamK is correct. The attack here misunderstands what the study's authors were tring to do, calculate the entire environmental impact, not the cost/ economic impact. Again, i'm not saying they did it correctly, and their numbers looks suspect, but this attack seems to miss the point. i don’t want to defend the original study, because I don’t know the calculations taht went into it, but i believe commenter SamK is correct. The attack here misunderstands what the study’s authors were tring to do, calculate the entire environmental impact, not the cost/ economic impact. Again, i’m not saying they did it correctly, and their numbers looks suspect, but this attack seems to miss the point.

]]> By: Thuldai http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-18216 Thuldai Fri, 29 Aug 2008 09:56:50 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-18216 That might shed some light on their methodology. So they might assume that any economic activity causes environmental damage, and they even find a fixed ratio for it. In that case the main reason (as far as I understand) that a Hummer is "more ecological" than a Prius is that it has to be largely discarded after its use while the nicely recylable Prius causes more economic activity after its lifespan and (so they conclude) more environmental damage. So according to the report we then should rather force Prius users (and any car for that matter) NOT to recycle their old vehicles as hence economic activity is avoided and the world a better place. Now that's still flawed and now we even know why. That might shed some light on their methodology.

So they might assume that any economic activity causes environmental damage, and they even find a fixed ratio for it.

In that case the main reason (as far as I understand) that a Hummer is “more ecological” than a Prius is that it has to be largely discarded after its use while the nicely recylable Prius causes more economic activity after its lifespan and (so they conclude) more environmental damage.

So according to the report we then should rather force Prius users (and any car for that matter) NOT to recycle their old vehicles as hence economic activity is avoided and the world a better place.

Now that’s still flawed and now we even know why.

]]> By: Jonathan Pierre http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-18229 Jonathan Pierre Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:39:34 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/prius-easily-beats-hummer-in-life-cycle-energy-use-dust-to-dust-report-has-no-basis-in-fact/#comment-18229 these are the greenest things that are changing the world and make the way we see how we can change the world with this topics and discussions, this is just really great! these are the greenest things that are changing the world and make the way we see how we can change the world with this topics and discussions, this is just really great!

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