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	<title>Comments on: Hurricane Katrina and the Myth of Global Warming Adaptation</title>
	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/#comment-5412</link>
		<author>Ron</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/#comment-5412</guid>
					<description>Katrina's lessons -

1) Avoid locating cities below sea level. But if you do, don't be surprised at floods.

2) Don't depend on government to save you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katrina&#8217;s lessons -</p>
<p>1) Avoid locating cities below sea level. But if you do, don&#8217;t be surprised at floods.</p>
<p>2) Don&#8217;t depend on government to save you.</p>
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		<title>By: raj</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/#comment-5416</link>
		<author>raj</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/#comment-5416</guid>
					<description>All you have to do is bring Jarod Diamond's book Collapse into the picture and whole notion goes out the window.

Other thing I would say to these deniers is that there was certain level of c02 in the atmosphere.  All that was buried to form coal and oil.  Now if you release this what happens to the atmosphere. 

Your using their level of language and fear to shut them up.  Debating like adults is not possible with this crowd.  Stop making the same mistake over and over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All you have to do is bring Jarod Diamond&#8217;s book Collapse into the picture and whole notion goes out the window.</p>
<p>Other thing I would say to these deniers is that there was certain level of c02 in the atmosphere.  All that was buried to form coal and oil.  Now if you release this what happens to the atmosphere. </p>
<p>Your using their level of language and fear to shut them up.  Debating like adults is not possible with this crowd.  Stop making the same mistake over and over.</p>
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		<title>By: David M.</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/#comment-5417</link>
		<author>David M.</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/#comment-5417</guid>
					<description>I think maybe New Orleans has always had a bit of a hurricane/flood problem. Even before 'global warming'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_preparedness_for_New_Orleans</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think maybe New Orleans has always had a bit of a hurricane/flood problem. Even before &#8216;global warming&#8217;.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_preparedness_for_New_Orleans" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>wiki/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>Hurricane_preparedness_for_New_Orleans</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/#comment-5419</link>
		<author>Joe</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/#comment-5419</guid>
					<description>Katrina's lessons revised

1)  Sharply reduce greenhouse gas emissions or else every major coastal city will be below sea level and subject to flooding like New Orleans.

2)  Don't depend on government to save you when that government is run by people who say they don't believe in government and who appoint cronies to manage important federal agencies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katrina&#8217;s lessons revised</p>
<p>1)  Sharply reduce greenhouse gas emissions or else every major coastal city will be below sea level and subject to flooding like New Orleans.</p>
<p>2)  Don&#8217;t depend on government to save you when that government is run by people who say they don&#8217;t believe in government and who appoint cronies to manage important federal agencies.</p>
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		<title>By: Earl Killian</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/#comment-5423</link>
		<author>Earl Killian</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 00:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/29/hurricane-katrina-and-the-myth-of-global-warming-adaptation/#comment-5423</guid>
					<description>Joseph Tainter wrote a book about the collapse of civilizations (long before Jared Diamond).  His hypothesis is that collapse occurs when civilizations reach the point of declining marginal return from complexity.  The above thread reminded me think of his thesis (especially Joe's sentence "If we won’t adapt to the realities of having one city below sea level...").  I think climate change has the potential to be the shove that pushes the world into collapse.  Here are some quotes from Tainter's book that give an idea of his hypothesis:

     There are two general factors that combine to yield a declining marginal return. First, stress and perturbation are a constant feature of any complex society, always occurring somewhere in its territory. Such a society will have a developed an operating regulatory apparatus that is designed to deal with such things as localized agricultural failures, border conflicts, and unrest. Since such continuous, localized stress can be expected to recur with regularity it can, to a degree, be anticipated and prepared for. Major, unexpected stress surges, however, will also occur given enough time, as such things as major climatic fluctuations and foreign incursions take place. To meet these major stresses the society must have some kind of net reserve. This can take the form of excess productive capacities in agriculture, energy, or minerals, or hoarded surpluses from past production. Stress surges of great magnitude cannot be accommodated without such a reserve. 

    Yet a society experiencing declining marginal returns is investing ever more heavily in a strategy that is yielding proportionately less. Excess productive capacity will at some point be used up, and accumulated surpluses allocated to current operating needs. There is, then, little or no surplus with which to counter major adversities. Unexpected stress surges must be dealt with out of the current operating budget, often ineffectually, and always to the detriment of the system as a whole. Even if the stress is successfully met, the society is weakened in the process, and made even more vulnerable to the next crisis. Once a complex society develops the vulnerabilities of declining marginal returns, collapse may merely require sufficient passage of time to render probable the occurrence of an insurmountable calamity. 
    …
    It is not that R&#38;D cannot potentially solve the problems of industrialism. The difficulty is that to do so will require an increasing share of GNP. The principle of infinite substitutability depends on energy and technology. With diminishing returns to investment in scientific research, how can economic growth be sustained? The answer is that to sustain growth resources will have to be allocated from other sectors of the economy into science and engineering. … The allocation of greater resources to science of course is nothing new, merely the continuation of a two centuries-old trend. Such investment, unfortunately, can never yield a permanent solution, merely a respite from diminishing returns.
    …
    Will we find, as have some past societies, that the cost of overcoming our problems is too high relative to the benefits conferred, and that not solving problems is the economical option? 
    …
    In fact, there are major differences between the current and the ancient worlds that have important implications for collapse. On of these is that the world today is full. That is to say, it is filled by complex societies; these occupy every sector of the globe, except the most desolate. This is a new factor in human history. Complex societies as a whole are a recent and unusual aspect of human life. The current situation, where all societies are so oddly constituted, is unique. It was shown earlier in this chapter that ancient collapses occurred, and could only occur, in a power vacuum, where a complex society (of cluster of peer polities) was surrounded by less complex neighbors. There are no power vacuums left today. Every nation is linked to, and influenced by, the major powers, and most are strongly linked with one power bloc or the other.
    …
    Peer polities then then tend to undergo long periods of upwardly-spiraling competitive costs, and downward marginal returns. This is terminated finally by domination of one and acquisition of a new energy subsidy (as in Republican Rome and Warring States China), or by mutual collapse (as among the Mycenaeans and the Maya). Collapse, if and when it comes again, will this time be global. No longer can any individual nation collapse. World civilization will disintegrate as a whole. Competitors who evolve as peers collapse in like manner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph Tainter wrote a book about the collapse of civilizations (long before Jared Diamond).  His hypothesis is that collapse occurs when civilizations reach the point of declining marginal return from complexity.  The above thread reminded me think of his thesis (especially Joe&#8217;s sentence &#8220;If we won’t adapt to the realities of having one city below sea level&#8230;&#8221;).  I think climate change has the potential to be the shove that pushes the world into collapse.  Here are some quotes from Tainter&#8217;s book that give an idea of his hypothesis:</p>
<p>     There are two general factors that combine to yield a declining marginal return. First, stress and perturbation are a constant feature of any complex society, always occurring somewhere in its territory. Such a society will have a developed an operating regulatory apparatus that is designed to deal with such things as localized agricultural failures, border conflicts, and unrest. Since such continuous, localized stress can be expected to recur with regularity it can, to a degree, be anticipated and prepared for. Major, unexpected stress surges, however, will also occur given enough time, as such things as major climatic fluctuations and foreign incursions take place. To meet these major stresses the society must have some kind of net reserve. This can take the form of excess productive capacities in agriculture, energy, or minerals, or hoarded surpluses from past production. Stress surges of great magnitude cannot be accommodated without such a reserve. </p>
<p>    Yet a society experiencing declining marginal returns is investing ever more heavily in a strategy that is yielding proportionately less. Excess productive capacity will at some point be used up, and accumulated surpluses allocated to current operating needs. There is, then, little or no surplus with which to counter major adversities. Unexpected stress surges must be dealt with out of the current operating budget, often ineffectually, and always to the detriment of the system as a whole. Even if the stress is successfully met, the society is weakened in the process, and made even more vulnerable to the next crisis. Once a complex society develops the vulnerabilities of declining marginal returns, collapse may merely require sufficient passage of time to render probable the occurrence of an insurmountable calamity.<br />
    …<br />
    It is not that R&amp;D cannot potentially solve the problems of industrialism. The difficulty is that to do so will require an increasing share of GNP. The principle of infinite substitutability depends on energy and technology. With diminishing returns to investment in scientific research, how can economic growth be sustained? The answer is that to sustain growth resources will have to be allocated from other sectors of the economy into science and engineering. … The allocation of greater resources to science of course is nothing new, merely the continuation of a two centuries-old trend. Such investment, unfortunately, can never yield a permanent solution, merely a respite from diminishing returns.<br />
    …<br />
    Will we find, as have some past societies, that the cost of overcoming our problems is too high relative to the benefits conferred, and that not solving problems is the economical option?<br />
    …<br />
    In fact, there are major differences between the current and the ancient worlds that have important implications for collapse. On of these is that the world today is full. That is to say, it is filled by complex societies; these occupy every sector of the globe, except the most desolate. This is a new factor in human history. Complex societies as a whole are a recent and unusual aspect of human life. The current situation, where all societies are so oddly constituted, is unique. It was shown earlier in this chapter that ancient collapses occurred, and could only occur, in a power vacuum, where a complex society (of cluster of peer polities) was surrounded by less complex neighbors. There are no power vacuums left today. Every nation is linked to, and influenced by, the major powers, and most are strongly linked with one power bloc or the other.<br />
    …<br />
    Peer polities then then tend to undergo long periods of upwardly-spiraling competitive costs, and downward marginal returns. This is terminated finally by domination of one and acquisition of a new energy subsidy (as in Republican Rome and Warring States China), or by mutual collapse (as among the Mycenaeans and the Maya). Collapse, if and when it comes again, will this time be global. No longer can any individual nation collapse. World civilization will disintegrate as a whole. Competitors who evolve as peers collapse in like manner.</p>
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