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	<title>Comments on: The biggest source of mistakes:  C vs. CO2</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: Barak Gale</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-29974</link>
		<dc:creator>Barak Gale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-29974</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m helping to organize a local project where individuals track their carbon footprint and commit to making reductions.  I&#039;m finding confusion of C versus CO2 rather ubiquitous.  Please tell me - is the figure of 45,000 pounds correct for per capita CO2 footprint in US (in pound CO2, not C!)?
Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m helping to organize a local project where individuals track their carbon footprint and commit to making reductions.  I&#8217;m finding confusion of C versus CO2 rather ubiquitous.  Please tell me &#8211; is the figure of 45,000 pounds correct for per capita CO2 footprint in US (in pound CO2, not C!)?<br />
Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris McGrath</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-21883</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris McGrath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-21883</guid>
		<description>I agree with Karen that there is a lot of confusion about CO2 vs CO2e targets. Apart from the different usages of CO2e, the problem becomes particularly acute when policy-makers and scientists talk about stabilizing global temperatures (where atmospheric CO2e is a more useful metric) and ocean acidity (where atmospheric CO2 is more meaningful).

There is some discussion of avoiding confusion for climate stabilization and ocean acidification targets at http://www.climateshifts.org/?p=683</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Karen that there is a lot of confusion about CO2 vs CO2e targets. Apart from the different usages of CO2e, the problem becomes particularly acute when policy-makers and scientists talk about stabilizing global temperatures (where atmospheric CO2e is a more useful metric) and ocean acidity (where atmospheric CO2 is more meaningful).</p>
<p>There is some discussion of avoiding confusion for climate stabilization and ocean acidification targets at <a href="http://www.climateshifts.org/?p=683" rel="nofollow">http://www.climateshifts.org/?p=683</a></p>
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		<title>By: Karen Nyhus</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-21855</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen Nyhus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-21855</guid>
		<description>Thanks for making an important point, Joe.

A sub-issue is of course the CO2 vs CO2e problem, and we get into it with atmospheric concentration calculations. Particularly since methane&#039;s on the rise again, we may need to clarify this as well, to confirm that our total atmospheric forcing targets are sufficient - or at least whether or not we&#039;re talking about the same target. Do you agree?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for making an important point, Joe.</p>
<p>A sub-issue is of course the CO2 vs CO2e problem, and we get into it with atmospheric concentration calculations. Particularly since methane&#8217;s on the rise again, we may need to clarify this as well, to confirm that our total atmospheric forcing targets are sufficient &#8211; or at least whether or not we&#8217;re talking about the same target. Do you agree?</p>
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		<title>By: norman</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-11864</link>
		<dc:creator>norman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 06:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-11864</guid>
		<description>The abstract of trying to price CO2 or Carbon seems impossible given the current thinking.  Maybe the pricing should consider the context of who&#039;s producing.....who&#039;s using? without reducing the elements ad nauseum to everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The abstract of trying to price CO2 or Carbon seems impossible given the current thinking.  Maybe the pricing should consider the context of who&#8217;s producing&#8230;..who&#8217;s using? without reducing the elements ad nauseum to everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10057</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10057</guid>
		<description>Paul K --- Yes, biocoal at 85% carbon, if as costly to produce as coal is right now, translates into the CO2 range you mention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul K &#8212; Yes, biocoal at 85% carbon, if as costly to produce as coal is right now, translates into the CO2 range you mention.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul K</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10056</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>That puts the current cost of CO2 at $200 -$250/ton.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That puts the current cost of CO2 at $200 -$250/ton.</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10047</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10047</guid>
		<description>Pangolin  --- No matter how many people get it wrong:

Terra Preta is a uniquely Amazonian soil type with high carbon content.

Biochar is a product of pyrolysis of biomass.  If woody biomass is used, the traditional name is charcoal.

Biocoal is the result of hydrothermal carbonization of biomass, a completely different (and exothermic) process from pyrolysis.

For permanent sequestration, biocoal is perferable.  Being precisely high-grade coal, we know it will stay securely buried for millions of years.  Biochar will not.  Read a recent report on the subject:

http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/node/578</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pangolin  &#8212; No matter how many people get it wrong:</p>
<p>Terra Preta is a uniquely Amazonian soil type with high carbon content.</p>
<p>Biochar is a product of pyrolysis of biomass.  If woody biomass is used, the traditional name is charcoal.</p>
<p>Biocoal is the result of hydrothermal carbonization of biomass, a completely different (and exothermic) process from pyrolysis.</p>
<p>For permanent sequestration, biocoal is perferable.  Being precisely high-grade coal, we know it will stay securely buried for millions of years.  Biochar will not.  Read a recent report on the subject:</p>
<p><a href="http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/node/578" rel="nofollow">http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/node/578</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10030</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10030</guid>
		<description>Paul:

20 lbs of CO2 emitted for a gallon of gasoline (direct emissions).
Another 4 or 5 pounds upstream (refining, etc.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul:</p>
<p>20 lbs of CO2 emitted for a gallon of gasoline (direct emissions).<br />
Another 4 or 5 pounds upstream (refining, etc.)</p>
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		<title>By: Pangolin</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10022</link>
		<dc:creator>Pangolin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 05:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10022</guid>
		<description>Why I prefer carbon.

If I am going to demonstrate to somebody, say in an booth, the relative environmental cost of burning fuels I can have a 6.6 lb bag of coal and a gallon gasoline can with a jug of water that will represent the 19.4 lbs of CO2 that is in the atmosphere from that gallon.  Keeping 19 lbs of dry ice at 19 lbs on Earth Day will be quite a trick locally where temps. average about 82 F. I can however show that it will take about 20 lbs of dry wood chips to get the 5.5 lbs of charcoal we have to bury to sequester the emissions from a single gallon of gas. I can then wave a printout of the virtuous carbon cycle from the Eprida website to show them that securing the carbon can be a benefit instead of a cost. 

I&#039;m not really sure how I could convince them to get rid of 16 lbs of fuming, hissing dry ice. It would be good to have some as a contrast though to show the difficulty of handling the stuff. It would have to stay in a &quot;no-touching&quot; lexan box. People get that carbon removed from the ground has to be returned to the ground as carbon. 

Terra Preta or biochar vs. &quot;biocoal&quot; 

David- I&#039;m not sure where you get your information that there is somehow some advantage to burying &quot;biocoal&quot; as vs. biochar or Terra Preta. Terra Preta (378k results on Google) or biochar (21K hits on Google) seem to be the preferred usage for carbonized biomass used for fuel AND soil amendment whereas &quot;biocoal&quot; (6.5K hits Google) seems to be used in reference to the fuel usage only. 

Adding the word &quot;abstract&quot; to the primary in a search reinforces this impression and justifies the impression that Terra Preta (terra preta+ abstract, 12.6K hits) is the common scientific usage with biochar (biochar + abstract, 1.6K hits) gaining ground and biocoal (biocoal + abstract) having limited use largely in reference to biomass to fuel operations.  A review of the scientific literature available on Google scholar also supports my hypothesis yielding 11K articles or citations for Terra Preta and 78 (as in 78) for biocoal. 

What has been repeatedly demonstrated is that adding powdered charcoal to active soil results in increased root and plant growth, thereby sequestering atmospheric carbon in addition to the carbon buried. It is therefore generally agreed that char in the active soil zone yields a carbon sequestration factor &gt; 1.  You seem to keep disputing this without references to evidence. So whether you are beating some kind of personal drum or muddying the waters could you please desist?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why I prefer carbon.</p>
<p>If I am going to demonstrate to somebody, say in an booth, the relative environmental cost of burning fuels I can have a 6.6 lb bag of coal and a gallon gasoline can with a jug of water that will represent the 19.4 lbs of CO2 that is in the atmosphere from that gallon.  Keeping 19 lbs of dry ice at 19 lbs on Earth Day will be quite a trick locally where temps. average about 82 F. I can however show that it will take about 20 lbs of dry wood chips to get the 5.5 lbs of charcoal we have to bury to sequester the emissions from a single gallon of gas. I can then wave a printout of the virtuous carbon cycle from the Eprida website to show them that securing the carbon can be a benefit instead of a cost. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not really sure how I could convince them to get rid of 16 lbs of fuming, hissing dry ice. It would be good to have some as a contrast though to show the difficulty of handling the stuff. It would have to stay in a &#8220;no-touching&#8221; lexan box. People get that carbon removed from the ground has to be returned to the ground as carbon. </p>
<p>Terra Preta or biochar vs. &#8220;biocoal&#8221; </p>
<p>David- I&#8217;m not sure where you get your information that there is somehow some advantage to burying &#8220;biocoal&#8221; as vs. biochar or Terra Preta. Terra Preta (378k results on Google) or biochar (21K hits on Google) seem to be the preferred usage for carbonized biomass used for fuel AND soil amendment whereas &#8220;biocoal&#8221; (6.5K hits Google) seems to be used in reference to the fuel usage only. </p>
<p>Adding the word &#8220;abstract&#8221; to the primary in a search reinforces this impression and justifies the impression that Terra Preta (terra preta+ abstract, 12.6K hits) is the common scientific usage with biochar (biochar + abstract, 1.6K hits) gaining ground and biocoal (biocoal + abstract) having limited use largely in reference to biomass to fuel operations.  A review of the scientific literature available on Google scholar also supports my hypothesis yielding 11K articles or citations for Terra Preta and 78 (as in 78) for biocoal. </p>
<p>What has been repeatedly demonstrated is that adding powdered charcoal to active soil results in increased root and plant growth, thereby sequestering atmospheric carbon in addition to the carbon buried. It is therefore generally agreed that char in the active soil zone yields a carbon sequestration factor &gt; 1.  You seem to keep disputing this without references to evidence. So whether you are beating some kind of personal drum or muddying the waters could you please desist?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul K</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10020</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 04:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/25/the-biggest-source-of-mistakes-c-vs-co2/#comment-10020</guid>
		<description>Most of the carbon I buy is in the form of gasoline. How many gallons of gasoline must be burnt to yield a ton of CO2. If I knew the answer, I would know my current cost and be much better able to consider the ramifications of the pricing advocated here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the carbon I buy is in the form of gasoline. How many gallons of gasoline must be burnt to yield a ton of CO2. If I knew the answer, I would know my current cost and be much better able to consider the ramifications of the pricing advocated here.</p>
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