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	<title>Comments on: Nick Kristof drinks the tech-breakthrough Kool-Aid &#8212; guess who he&#8217;s been talking to</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Hoexter</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11324</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Hoexter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11324</guid>
		<description>Paul K,
I&#039;m critical of Pielke for exactly the words he writes and the way he argues his positions.  I don&#039;t know if your criticism of me is perhaps directed somewhere else but I have been focusing on how he is conducting himself here, on the Nature article and what I see at the BI website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul K,<br />
I&#8217;m critical of Pielke for exactly the words he writes and the way he argues his positions.  I don&#8217;t know if your criticism of me is perhaps directed somewhere else but I have been focusing on how he is conducting himself here, on the Nature article and what I see at the BI website.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bloom</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11307</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bloom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11307</guid>
		<description>This passage (quoted by Roger above) from the Sarewitz and Pielke article seems to me to encapsulate a critical aspect of the problem:

&quot;It becomes a bit more clear that we may have set ourselves down the wrong path when we framed the challenge of mitigating greenhouse gases in terms of &#039;reducing emissions&#039;. Characterizing the policy challenge in this way leads people in rich countries to focus on things like changing light bulbs and driving less thirsty cars – all good things, to be sure – but which can hardly make a dent in the overall challenge of stabilizing atmospheric concentrations.&quot;

In which case it seems obvious that we ought to change the frame so as to bring the scale of the solutions into better alignment with the need.  It&#039;s true that there will be considerable resistance to such a paradigm shift, but pretending one isn&#039;t needed is simply wishful thinking.  Such thinking leads to &lt;a href=&quot;http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000789some_simple_economic.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; sort of techno-silliness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This passage (quoted by Roger above) from the Sarewitz and Pielke article seems to me to encapsulate a critical aspect of the problem:</p>
<p>&#8220;It becomes a bit more clear that we may have set ourselves down the wrong path when we framed the challenge of mitigating greenhouse gases in terms of &#8216;reducing emissions&#8217;. Characterizing the policy challenge in this way leads people in rich countries to focus on things like changing light bulbs and driving less thirsty cars – all good things, to be sure – but which can hardly make a dent in the overall challenge of stabilizing atmospheric concentrations.&#8221;</p>
<p>In which case it seems obvious that we ought to change the frame so as to bring the scale of the solutions into better alignment with the need.  It&#8217;s true that there will be considerable resistance to such a paradigm shift, but pretending one isn&#8217;t needed is simply wishful thinking.  Such thinking leads to <a href="http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000789some_simple_economic.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> sort of techno-silliness.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul K</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11301</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 04:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11301</guid>
		<description>Michael Hoexter,
If you were commenting here before Joe started in on Pielke et al, I stand corrected. I don&#039;t think to have been particularly rude to Mr Pielke, just misdirected and critical of positions he does not hold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Hoexter,<br />
If you were commenting here before Joe started in on Pielke et al, I stand corrected. I don&#8217;t think to have been particularly rude to Mr Pielke, just misdirected and critical of positions he does not hold.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11297</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11297</guid>
		<description>To those who think that if we only spend 20 billion a year in research of renewables, that it&#039;ll bring the cost of it below carbon fueled energy.   Except that carbon fueled energy has also had many years of research already done on it and for tens of years already.   The costs of renewables may just not go below that of carbon fueled energy or at least not low enough to bother converting to low and non carbon renewables.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To those who think that if we only spend 20 billion a year in research of renewables, that it&#8217;ll bring the cost of it below carbon fueled energy.   Except that carbon fueled energy has also had many years of research already done on it and for tens of years already.   The costs of renewables may just not go below that of carbon fueled energy or at least not low enough to bother converting to low and non carbon renewables.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11295</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 02:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11295</guid>
		<description>Some people are advocating that the most important principle to reduce global warming is large increases in government research and development and all else is of secondary importance.   The hope is that energy costs will decrease enough to make everybody not use carbon energy and only non and low carbon energies.  They are making a mistake in their understanding of the reasons why we have such large differences in innovations in information products, mass products and energy products.

Information products are cell phones, TV’s, computers, anything with integrated circuits and all those silicon chips.    The last 30 to 40 years we’ve had huge amount of innovation and new products that are related to information.   Information after all is just digital systems, 1’s and 0’s and it didn’t matter how big or little the 1 or 0 are, they could just make those products smaller and use less power.   Information increases for the most part with Moore’s Law which says something like transistor density doubles every 18 months.   40 years of doubling every 18 months should bring us a lot of innovations and it did.  

What’s been the innovation of mass products?   Not so much.   Mass products would be houses, 2x4’s, roads, aircraft carriers, cars, silverware, books, copper pipes, etc.   There has been some decrease in cost of some of these things, but for houses for example, the costs have actually gone up.    Given increases in productivity, we can afford more of each of these things, but nothing like doubling every 18 months.   

What about energy products?  That would of course be the coal, oil and gas generators, ICE’s, photovoltaic, wind turbines, etc.   Here’s where those people who think that the principle need to reduce greenhouse gases is research make their mistake.   They think that innovations in energy are like innovations in information products.   And why not.   Photovoltaic are made from silicon and so are integrated circuits.  How much different can everything else be?   That’s just it, it is different, and those things that are non-carbon and low-carbon are more like mass products and not like information products.

If we spent 20 billion a year on research on building houses, would they be cheaper?   How about aircraft carriers?   Cars?    Roads?   Copper pipes?   Certainly research would do some to reduce costs.   But the main elements on each are still going to be there and the research is going to be much more like mass products than information products.

I remember a conversation I had with a professor in 1984 on this subject.   He had worked at solar one and was up to date with what was going on with energy which made him fun and interesting to talk with.  In the early 80’s there were all kinds of predictions that the technology would do for power photovoltaic what it did for integrated circuits.   It was turning out that it wasn’t happening and researchers realized they were different products.

What is the thing we need to influence the non-carbon, low-carbon and carbon energy?  A price for carbon.   Maybe other incentives to not use carbon energy.   But we can’t use examples of innovations from information systems as examples of what can happen in energy systems.   They aren’t the same.   Research can help, but it’ll take real economic incentives for people to use less carbon sources and more non and low carbon for their energy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people are advocating that the most important principle to reduce global warming is large increases in government research and development and all else is of secondary importance.   The hope is that energy costs will decrease enough to make everybody not use carbon energy and only non and low carbon energies.  They are making a mistake in their understanding of the reasons why we have such large differences in innovations in information products, mass products and energy products.</p>
<p>Information products are cell phones, TV’s, computers, anything with integrated circuits and all those silicon chips.    The last 30 to 40 years we’ve had huge amount of innovation and new products that are related to information.   Information after all is just digital systems, 1’s and 0’s and it didn’t matter how big or little the 1 or 0 are, they could just make those products smaller and use less power.   Information increases for the most part with Moore’s Law which says something like transistor density doubles every 18 months.   40 years of doubling every 18 months should bring us a lot of innovations and it did.  </p>
<p>What’s been the innovation of mass products?   Not so much.   Mass products would be houses, 2&#215;4’s, roads, aircraft carriers, cars, silverware, books, copper pipes, etc.   There has been some decrease in cost of some of these things, but for houses for example, the costs have actually gone up.    Given increases in productivity, we can afford more of each of these things, but nothing like doubling every 18 months.   </p>
<p>What about energy products?  That would of course be the coal, oil and gas generators, ICE’s, photovoltaic, wind turbines, etc.   Here’s where those people who think that the principle need to reduce greenhouse gases is research make their mistake.   They think that innovations in energy are like innovations in information products.   And why not.   Photovoltaic are made from silicon and so are integrated circuits.  How much different can everything else be?   That’s just it, it is different, and those things that are non-carbon and low-carbon are more like mass products and not like information products.</p>
<p>If we spent 20 billion a year on research on building houses, would they be cheaper?   How about aircraft carriers?   Cars?    Roads?   Copper pipes?   Certainly research would do some to reduce costs.   But the main elements on each are still going to be there and the research is going to be much more like mass products than information products.</p>
<p>I remember a conversation I had with a professor in 1984 on this subject.   He had worked at solar one and was up to date with what was going on with energy which made him fun and interesting to talk with.  In the early 80’s there were all kinds of predictions that the technology would do for power photovoltaic what it did for integrated circuits.   It was turning out that it wasn’t happening and researchers realized they were different products.</p>
<p>What is the thing we need to influence the non-carbon, low-carbon and carbon energy?  A price for carbon.   Maybe other incentives to not use carbon energy.   But we can’t use examples of innovations from information systems as examples of what can happen in energy systems.   They aren’t the same.   Research can help, but it’ll take real economic incentives for people to use less carbon sources and more non and low carbon for their energy.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Alt</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11294</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Alt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11294</guid>
		<description>GE&#039;s hysterical Immelt weighs in -

http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/21/news/companies/ge_immelt_energy/index.htm?postversion=2008042115

&lt;i&gt;Jeff Immelt, chairman and CEO of General Electric, said Monday much of the technology to make energy generation cleaner and more efficient is available now.   The challenge, however, is deploying it and making it cheaper.

&quot;A lot of the technology is already there,&quot; Immelt told a crowd of electric utility executives at an industry meeting sponsored by the Edison Electric Institute, a utility trade group. &quot;This is a business model issue, not a technical issue. Our job is to make them cheaper.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

The Board will be stunned that he missed the &#039;brakethru&#039; entirely.  Pfffft</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GE&#8217;s hysterical Immelt weighs in -</p>
<p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/21/news/companies/ge_immelt_energy/index.htm?postversion=2008042115" rel="nofollow">http://money.cnn.com/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>2008/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>04/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>21/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>news/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>companies/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>ge_immelt_energy/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>index.htm?postversion=2008042115</a></p>
<p><i>Jeff Immelt, chairman and CEO of General Electric, said Monday much of the technology to make energy generation cleaner and more efficient is available now.   The challenge, however, is deploying it and making it cheaper.</p>
<p>&#8220;A lot of the technology is already there,&#8221; Immelt told a crowd of electric utility executives at an industry meeting sponsored by the Edison Electric Institute, a utility trade group. &#8220;This is a business model issue, not a technical issue. Our job is to make them cheaper.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>The Board will be stunned that he missed the &#8216;brakethru&#8217; entirely.  Pfffft</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Hoexter</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11292</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Hoexter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11292</guid>
		<description>What is this supposed to mean?

&quot;Roger Pielke, Jr.,
I believe Michael Hoexter arrived here around the same time you did.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is this supposed to mean?</p>
<p>&#8220;Roger Pielke, Jr.,<br />
I believe Michael Hoexter arrived here around the same time you did.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul K</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11287</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11287</guid>
		<description>Roger Pielke, Jr.,
 I believe Michael Hoexter arrived here around the same time you did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger Pielke, Jr.,<br />
 I believe Michael Hoexter arrived here around the same time you did.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11280</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11280</guid>
		<description>Sorry, Michael Shellenberger, the day zoomed by and I had to work on my Salon article.  I will reply on Earth Day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Michael Shellenberger, the day zoomed by and I had to work on my Salon article.  I will reply on Earth Day.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11279</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/20/nick-kristof-drinks-the-tech-breakthrough-kool-aid-guess-who-hes-been-talking-to/#comment-11279</guid>
		<description>You don&#039;t need to look at the Salon ad.  Close your eyes for 5 seconds.  Or look at your other screen.  That&#039;s what I do.
Sheesh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t need to look at the Salon ad.  Close your eyes for 5 seconds.  Or look at your other screen.  That&#8217;s what I do.<br />
Sheesh!</p>
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