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	<title>Comments on: OT:  If worse comes to worst</title>
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	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: David Mathews</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-40977</link>
		<dc:creator>David Mathews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-40977</guid>
		<description>Did anyone watch &quot;Life After People&quot; last night?  

http://www.history.com/minisites/life_after_people

The program describes how our civilization crumbles after humankind disappears.  What they neglected to mention is that our civilization would crumble in a similar manner even if humankind does not disappear.  

Our civilization is already crumbling and it will end, soon.  Climate Change isn&#039;t a threat to our civilization (our civilization is dying and would die on its own even if there was no climate change) but it is a threat to our species&#039; survival.  

I&#039;m just guessing or speaking intuitively, but I think it safe to say that the Homo sapiens will be extinct within a geologically trivial length of time.  Nature will survive, though, as she has always survived.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did anyone watch &#8220;Life After People&#8221; last night?  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.history.com/minisites/life_after_people" rel="nofollow">http://www.history.com/minisites/life_after_people</a></p>
<p>The program describes how our civilization crumbles after humankind disappears.  What they neglected to mention is that our civilization would crumble in a similar manner even if humankind does not disappear.  </p>
<p>Our civilization is already crumbling and it will end, soon.  Climate Change isn&#8217;t a threat to our civilization (our civilization is dying and would die on its own even if there was no climate change) but it is a threat to our species&#8217; survival.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m just guessing or speaking intuitively, but I think it safe to say that the Homo sapiens will be extinct within a geologically trivial length of time.  Nature will survive, though, as she has always survived.</p>
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		<title>By: Earl Killian</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11610</link>
		<dc:creator>Earl Killian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11610</guid>
		<description>joet, I am concerned abut that, though I think the Senate is where things matter.  It takes 67 votes to pass a treaty, and 60 to pass normal legislation.  Currently there are not enough climate concerned Senators to pass something even if the next President tries to implement what he or she promised (and look what happened in 2000 to what was promised).

However, as unlikely as it is to happen, I think that individual sacrifices making a difference is even less likely.  This brings to mind what Václav Havel wrote about hope in Disturbing the Peace (1986):

&#039;Hope, in this deep and powerful sense, is not the same as joy that things are going well, or willingness to invest in enterprises that are obviously headed for early success, but rather, an ability to work for something because it is good, not just because it stands a chance to succeed. The more unpropitious the situation in which we demonstrate hope, the deeper that hope is. Hope is definitely not the same thing as optimism. It is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense, regardless of how it turns out. …&#039;

He goes on to talk about how people eventually affect their government, even though government is set up to be insulated from the people:

&#039;I have never fixed my hopes there [in the sphere of power]; I’ve always been more interested in what was happening “below,” in what could be expected from “below,” what could be won there, and what defended. All power is power over someone, and it always somehow responds, usually unwittingly rather than deliberately, to the state of mind and the behavior of those it rules over. One can always find in the behavior of power, a reflection of what is going on “below.”&#039;

Sounds like a motto for bloggers... :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>joet, I am concerned abut that, though I think the Senate is where things matter.  It takes 67 votes to pass a treaty, and 60 to pass normal legislation.  Currently there are not enough climate concerned Senators to pass something even if the next President tries to implement what he or she promised (and look what happened in 2000 to what was promised).</p>
<p>However, as unlikely as it is to happen, I think that individual sacrifices making a difference is even less likely.  This brings to mind what Václav Havel wrote about hope in Disturbing the Peace (1986):</p>
<p>&#8216;Hope, in this deep and powerful sense, is not the same as joy that things are going well, or willingness to invest in enterprises that are obviously headed for early success, but rather, an ability to work for something because it is good, not just because it stands a chance to succeed. The more unpropitious the situation in which we demonstrate hope, the deeper that hope is. Hope is definitely not the same thing as optimism. It is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense, regardless of how it turns out. …&#8217;</p>
<p>He goes on to talk about how people eventually affect their government, even though government is set up to be insulated from the people:</p>
<p>&#8216;I have never fixed my hopes there [in the sphere of power]; I’ve always been more interested in what was happening “below,” in what could be expected from “below,” what could be won there, and what defended. All power is power over someone, and it always somehow responds, usually unwittingly rather than deliberately, to the state of mind and the behavior of those it rules over. One can always find in the behavior of power, a reflection of what is going on “below.”&#8217;</p>
<p>Sounds like a motto for bloggers&#8230; <img src='http://climateprogress.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: joet</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11605</link>
		<dc:creator>joet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 18:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11605</guid>
		<description>That isn&#039;t going to happen.  Have you seen how high up the agenda climate change is in the presidential race?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That isn&#8217;t going to happen.  Have you seen how high up the agenda climate change is in the presidential race?</p>
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		<title>By: Earl Killian</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11595</link>
		<dc:creator>Earl Killian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11595</guid>
		<description>joet, Joe has argued in the past that personal lifestyle changes will not get us where we need to be.  Only the actions of governments can make a sufficiently large change to avoid catastrophe.

The most important thing you can do is help elect politicians in your country that will steer a course to zero/negative GHG emissions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>joet, Joe has argued in the past that personal lifestyle changes will not get us where we need to be.  Only the actions of governments can make a sufficiently large change to avoid catastrophe.</p>
<p>The most important thing you can do is help elect politicians in your country that will steer a course to zero/negative GHG emissions.</p>
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		<title>By: joet</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11573</link>
		<dc:creator>joet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11573</guid>
		<description>Hi, I&#039;m 32 and have a 7 year old daughter.

And for the record, I take sacrificial changes to my carbon lifestyle very seriously.  But given that even with the changes we&#039;ve already made, a more than 66% reduction is still needed (and given there are a great number of people who have done almost nothing) I can&#039;t see that it can be done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, I&#8217;m 32 and have a 7 year old daughter.</p>
<p>And for the record, I take sacrificial changes to my carbon lifestyle very seriously.  But given that even with the changes we&#8217;ve already made, a more than 66% reduction is still needed (and given there are a great number of people who have done almost nothing) I can&#8217;t see that it can be done.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11501</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11501</guid>
		<description>Joet -- What is your age range and do you have kids, if I might ask?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joet &#8212; What is your age range and do you have kids, if I might ask?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: joet</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11499</link>
		<dc:creator>joet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11499</guid>
		<description>Good luck with that.  I&#039;m going to be planning for the worst.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good luck with that.  I&#8217;m going to be planning for the worst.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11498</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11498</guid>
		<description>It definitely is NOT a lost cause yet.  Now you are probably right that avoiding catastrophic warming is not in the cards politically -- but as long as it is still possible technologically and economically, I think all of us have a moral obligation to do we can to bring about the necessary political change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It definitely is NOT a lost cause yet.  Now you are probably right that avoiding catastrophic warming is not in the cards politically &#8212; but as long as it is still possible technologically and economically, I think all of us have a moral obligation to do we can to bring about the necessary political change.</p>
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		<title>By: joet</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11495</link>
		<dc:creator>joet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11495</guid>
		<description>PS, I know that is what you&#039;ve been writing about here.  Important though it is, I think it is already a lost cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS, I know that is what you&#8217;ve been writing about here.  Important though it is, I think it is already a lost cause.</p>
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		<title>By: joet</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11494</link>
		<dc:creator>joet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/22/ot-if-worse-comes-to-worst/#comment-11494</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that is good enough.  How much mitigation do we need to change and is it even achievable?  Given that most green organisations are still talking on the level of &#039;change a few light bulbs&#039; I don&#039;t think it is unreasonable to suggest we&#039;re simply not going to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that is good enough.  How much mitigation do we need to change and is it even achievable?  Given that most green organisations are still talking on the level of &#8216;change a few light bulbs&#8217; I don&#8217;t think it is unreasonable to suggest we&#8217;re simply not going to do it.</p>
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