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	<title>Comments on: Is 450 ppm politically possible? Part 2.6:  What is the impact of peak oil and peak coal?</title>
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	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: david glover</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-19358</link>
		<dc:creator>david glover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 22:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-19358</guid>
		<description>a couple of books that may be of interest;

   Climate Wars  by Gwynne Dyer

   Profit from the Peak   by Chris Nelder and Brian Hicks

   PFTP  is essential reading to get a realistic appreciation of the dire situation we have dug ourselves into

Climate Wars is just mindblowing; don,t read it after dark!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a couple of books that may be of interest;</p>
<p>   Climate Wars  by Gwynne Dyer</p>
<p>   Profit from the Peak   by Chris Nelder and Brian Hicks</p>
<p>   PFTP  is essential reading to get a realistic appreciation of the dire situation we have dug ourselves into</p>
<p>Climate Wars is just mindblowing; don,t read it after dark!!</p>
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		<title>By: David Lewis</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-18208</link>
		<dc:creator>David Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-18208</guid>
		<description>May I suggest a book, &quot;Sustainable Fossil Fuels&quot; by Mark Jaccard?  He explains the difference between a &quot;reserve&quot; and a &quot;resource&quot; and the likely ability of coal, oil, natural gas, and other sources of energy to power civilization and for how long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I suggest a book, &#8220;Sustainable Fossil Fuels&#8221; by Mark Jaccard?  He explains the difference between a &#8220;reserve&#8221; and a &#8220;resource&#8221; and the likely ability of coal, oil, natural gas, and other sources of energy to power civilization and for how long.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Levenson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11727</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Levenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11727</guid>
		<description>Eli,
That&#039;s a false choice.  You wouldn&#039;t replace natural gas with coal.   You replace nature gas with solar thermal, nuclear and PV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eli,<br />
That&#8217;s a false choice.  You wouldn&#8217;t replace natural gas with coal.   You replace nature gas with solar thermal, nuclear and PV.</p>
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		<title>By: Eli Rabett</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11698</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli Rabett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11698</guid>
		<description>Earl, not that I am complaining (note that the multiplier in gCO2 is 3 which is right in the range I calculated) but part of the point is that you can get a good estimate using a BOE calculation, which is one of their principle uses, to act as a check on more detailed work.  A really scary number I have seen is natural gas turbine electrical generation + zone heating (for industrial/residential) yielding efficiencies &gt; 80%.  That would be great.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Earl, not that I am complaining (note that the multiplier in gCO2 is 3 which is right in the range I calculated) but part of the point is that you can get a good estimate using a BOE calculation, which is one of their principle uses, to act as a check on more detailed work.  A really scary number I have seen is natural gas turbine electrical generation + zone heating (for industrial/residential) yielding efficiencies &gt; 80%.  That would be great.</p>
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		<title>By: Earl Killian</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11697</link>
		<dc:creator>Earl Killian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11697</guid>
		<description>Eli, a more complete calculation would take into account the relative efficiencies of NGCC and coal power plants.  NGCC are 50-60% efficient relative to the LHV of NG (the GE H-System turbine claims 60%).  Coal plants are 34-44% efficient relative to the LHV of coal (25-34% with CCS).  NGCC emissions are around 300 gCO2/kWh.  Coal emissions are around 900 gCO2/kWh.

You might find this reference useful in the future:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/coefficients.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eli, a more complete calculation would take into account the relative efficiencies of NGCC and coal power plants.  NGCC are 50-60% efficient relative to the LHV of NG (the GE H-System turbine claims 60%).  Coal plants are 34-44% efficient relative to the LHV of coal (25-34% with CCS).  NGCC emissions are around 300 gCO2/kWh.  Coal emissions are around 900 gCO2/kWh.</p>
<p>You might find this reference useful in the future:<br />
<a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/coefficients.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/coefficients.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Eli Rabett</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11694</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli Rabett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11694</guid>
		<description>Ken, how high would the emissions be if natural gas were replaced by coal?  

We can do a simple back of the envelope (BOE) calculation based on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_of_combustion#Heating_value&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; heating value of the two fuels&lt;/a&gt; (data at link).  Natural gas has a heating value of ~ 54 MJ/kg (megajoules per kilogram), coal is much more variable, with heating values ranging from 27 to 15 MJ/kg, the 15 representing burning dirt aka brown coal (Germany) and the 27 anthracite.  At the lowest natural gas has about twice the heating value of coal, at the highest more than three times.  

Coal is essentially carbon, so for every ~15-27 MJ we inject a kg of carbon into the atmosphere.  Natural gas is pretty much methane, CH4.  When we burn a kg of methane yielding 52 MJ, accounting for the masses of carbon and hydrogen atoms, we push 3/4 of a pound of carbon into the atmosphere.  Putting that together coal produces ~2.7-4.8 times more carbon in the atmosphere than natural gas.  

This does not include the other problems that are much more seriously associated with coal than natural gas including dead miners, sick miners, mercury emissions, sulfur emissions, environmental damage and more.

As John McCarthy says, he who does not do the arithmetic is doomed to failure.  Do the math Ken.  Replacing coal with natural gas, if it were possible would reduce emissions.  Supply tells us that it is not possible unfortunately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, how high would the emissions be if natural gas were replaced by coal?  </p>
<p>We can do a simple back of the envelope (BOE) calculation based on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_of_combustion#Heating_value" rel="nofollow"> heating value of the two fuels</a> (data at link).  Natural gas has a heating value of ~ 54 MJ/kg (megajoules per kilogram), coal is much more variable, with heating values ranging from 27 to 15 MJ/kg, the 15 representing burning dirt aka brown coal (Germany) and the 27 anthracite.  At the lowest natural gas has about twice the heating value of coal, at the highest more than three times.  </p>
<p>Coal is essentially carbon, so for every ~15-27 MJ we inject a kg of carbon into the atmosphere.  Natural gas is pretty much methane, CH4.  When we burn a kg of methane yielding 52 MJ, accounting for the masses of carbon and hydrogen atoms, we push 3/4 of a pound of carbon into the atmosphere.  Putting that together coal produces ~2.7-4.8 times more carbon in the atmosphere than natural gas.  </p>
<p>This does not include the other problems that are much more seriously associated with coal than natural gas including dead miners, sick miners, mercury emissions, sulfur emissions, environmental damage and more.</p>
<p>As John McCarthy says, he who does not do the arithmetic is doomed to failure.  Do the math Ken.  Replacing coal with natural gas, if it were possible would reduce emissions.  Supply tells us that it is not possible unfortunately.</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11642</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11642</guid>
		<description>Laird Towle --- The is considerable, even massive potential for bio-energy, bio-plastics, etc.  You can read about many of the developments here:

http://biopact.com/

although the site is no longer being updated.  This one is:

http://www.icis.com/blogs/biofuels/

and Simon welcomes comments, questions, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laird Towle &#8212; The is considerable, even massive potential for bio-energy, bio-plastics, etc.  You can read about many of the developments here:</p>
<p><a href="http://biopact.com/" rel="nofollow">http://biopact.com/</a></p>
<p>although the site is no longer being updated.  This one is:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.icis.com/blogs/biofuels/" rel="nofollow">http://www.icis.com/blogs/biofuels/</a></p>
<p>and Simon welcomes comments, questions, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Earl Killian</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11641</link>
		<dc:creator>Earl Killian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11641</guid>
		<description>Robert, when I first heard about the Air Force CTL effort, I wrote my Senators asking them to withhold funding for this project.  I suggest others do the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, when I first heard about the Air Force CTL effort, I wrote my Senators asking them to withhold funding for this project.  I suggest others do the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Laird Towle</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11637</link>
		<dc:creator>Laird Towle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11637</guid>
		<description>Joe:

1) Thanks for the good work you are doing.

2) I suggest that a prime factor driving the demand for energy is world population growth, and that any attempt to mitigate peak oil or global warming/climate change must begin with a serious effort to stop world population growth, and roll it back to a sustainable 1-2 billion.

With BAU world population is projected to increase from the current 6.6 billion to 9 billion by 2050. That is a 50% increase. Essentially all arable land is currently under cultivation, we do not have 50% in reserve. Likewise, nearly all fresh water is currently being used, we do not have 50% excess water (and with the glaciers melting we may have even less at crop time). Finally, a 50% increase in the petrochemicals needed to support a 50% expansion in agricultural production appears to be out of the question. So much for feeding these additional people, what about their other needs? Can we increase our output of wood products, metals, plastics, etc. by 50% also? These considerations make me wonder what the future holds - mass malnutrician, disease, and death seem likely - it appears that the food riots have already begun.

3) You assume that peak oil will not occur for a decade. That seems entirely too optimistic to me. The many projections cited in the books by Paul Roberts and Richard Henberg, which utilize a variety of methodologies, usually predict peak oil will occur by 2010, if it has not already occurred. I don&#039;t see oil company executives as credible authorities on this issue.

4) It appears to me that there will be major economic consequences resulting for peak oil, notably higher prices for everything since virtually everything we make or do depends on oil. This needs to be factored into the cost of the various mitigating wedges proposed, and may slow down their implimentation significantly. For example, there may be enormous political pressure to do what is cheapest rather than what is environmentally sound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe:</p>
<p>1) Thanks for the good work you are doing.</p>
<p>2) I suggest that a prime factor driving the demand for energy is world population growth, and that any attempt to mitigate peak oil or global warming/climate change must begin with a serious effort to stop world population growth, and roll it back to a sustainable 1-2 billion.</p>
<p>With BAU world population is projected to increase from the current 6.6 billion to 9 billion by 2050. That is a 50% increase. Essentially all arable land is currently under cultivation, we do not have 50% in reserve. Likewise, nearly all fresh water is currently being used, we do not have 50% excess water (and with the glaciers melting we may have even less at crop time). Finally, a 50% increase in the petrochemicals needed to support a 50% expansion in agricultural production appears to be out of the question. So much for feeding these additional people, what about their other needs? Can we increase our output of wood products, metals, plastics, etc. by 50% also? These considerations make me wonder what the future holds &#8211; mass malnutrician, disease, and death seem likely &#8211; it appears that the food riots have already begun.</p>
<p>3) You assume that peak oil will not occur for a decade. That seems entirely too optimistic to me. The many projections cited in the books by Paul Roberts and Richard Henberg, which utilize a variety of methodologies, usually predict peak oil will occur by 2010, if it has not already occurred. I don&#8217;t see oil company executives as credible authorities on this issue.</p>
<p>4) It appears to me that there will be major economic consequences resulting for peak oil, notably higher prices for everything since virtually everything we make or do depends on oil. This needs to be factored into the cost of the various mitigating wedges proposed, and may slow down their implimentation significantly. For example, there may be enormous political pressure to do what is cheapest rather than what is environmentally sound.</p>
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		<title>By: Earl Killian</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11624</link>
		<dc:creator>Earl Killian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 03:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/04/24/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-26-what-is-the-impact-of-peak-oil-and-peak-coal/#comment-11624</guid>
		<description>John McCormick, Please see
http://www.energy.ca.gov/lng/worldwide/united_states.html

Because California is one of the most NG dependent states, the California Energy Commission tracks this sort of thing quite closely.

Click on the maps, and noticed how few green dots there are, and how many white ones.

I am not sure what you mean by safe.  Safe as being an alternative to peak oil?  No, because we would not convert our vehicle fleet to NG.  Safe in a AGW sense?  No, of course not.  No fossil fuel is safe.  NG is of course the least GHG-intensive fossil fuel, since it has the highest hydrogen to carbon ratio possible in a hydrocarbon (4:1, vs. 2.25:1 for octane, and about 0.7:1 for coal).  Converting all US coal plants to NG would reduce those plants&#039; GHG emissions by 67% and cut total US GNG emissions from all sources by about 10%.

There is a perfectly sane alternative to gasoline and coal: wind and solar electricity powering plug-in vehicles.  It would only take 5,000 square miles of the US desert southwest covered with CSP to power the 3.9 trillion vehicle miles US drivers will try to drive in 2050 (420 million people times 9300 vehicle miles per capita per year).  It could be done with wind too (40,000 square miles of wind farms, but only 2,000 square miles of that is occupied by the turbines and service roads--the rest can have other uses).  Plug ins even have lower total lifetime cost of ownership than gassers.  Unfortunately they have higher up-front purchase cost.  This could be solved by leasing the battery pack instead of buying it.  Plug-ins are the perfect uses of wind, since they are parked 95% of the time, and take only 5% of the day to recharge (on average), so that 5% can occur whenever the wind blows during the 95%.

Being desirable and technically feasible doesn&#039;t mean it will happen of course.  I think it will, but I cannot be sure that stupidity won&#039;t derail it (it has so far).  The reason I think it will happen is plug-in hybrids will give enough buyers a taste of what is possible, and they will clamor for more, building momentum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John McCormick, Please see<br />
<a href="http://www.energy.ca.gov/lng/worldwide/united_states.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.energy.ca.gov/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>lng/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>worldwide/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>united_states.html</a></p>
<p>Because California is one of the most NG dependent states, the California Energy Commission tracks this sort of thing quite closely.</p>
<p>Click on the maps, and noticed how few green dots there are, and how many white ones.</p>
<p>I am not sure what you mean by safe.  Safe as being an alternative to peak oil?  No, because we would not convert our vehicle fleet to NG.  Safe in a AGW sense?  No, of course not.  No fossil fuel is safe.  NG is of course the least GHG-intensive fossil fuel, since it has the highest hydrogen to carbon ratio possible in a hydrocarbon (4:1, vs. 2.25:1 for octane, and about 0.7:1 for coal).  Converting all US coal plants to NG would reduce those plants&#8217; GHG emissions by 67% and cut total US GNG emissions from all sources by about 10%.</p>
<p>There is a perfectly sane alternative to gasoline and coal: wind and solar electricity powering plug-in vehicles.  It would only take 5,000 square miles of the US desert southwest covered with CSP to power the 3.9 trillion vehicle miles US drivers will try to drive in 2050 (420 million people times 9300 vehicle miles per capita per year).  It could be done with wind too (40,000 square miles of wind farms, but only 2,000 square miles of that is occupied by the turbines and service roads&#8211;the rest can have other uses).  Plug ins even have lower total lifetime cost of ownership than gassers.  Unfortunately they have higher up-front purchase cost.  This could be solved by leasing the battery pack instead of buying it.  Plug-ins are the perfect uses of wind, since they are parked 95% of the time, and take only 5% of the day to recharge (on average), so that 5% can occur whenever the wind blows during the 95%.</p>
<p>Being desirable and technically feasible doesn&#8217;t mean it will happen of course.  I think it will, but I cannot be sure that stupidity won&#8217;t derail it (it has so far).  The reason I think it will happen is plug-in hybrids will give enough buyers a taste of what is possible, and they will clamor for more, building momentum.</p>
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