Comments on: Note to media/Bush: Saudis/OPEC don’t control the price of oil any more! http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:27:35 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Robert http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12902 Robert Mon, 19 May 2008 00:03:44 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12902 So what's going to happen to the 3 or 4 million bopd saved by 2050? Let me guess - someon else burns it... Doesn't exactly fix the climate does it? So what’s going to happen to the 3 or 4 million bopd saved by 2050? Let me guess – someon else burns it… Doesn’t exactly fix the climate does it?

]]> By: Jay Alt http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12868 Jay Alt Sun, 18 May 2008 02:55:36 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12868 <i>It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that just ain't so. </i> PHEV are beneficial, regardless of what is used to fuel the generating station. http://climateprogress.org/2007/07/24/plug-in-hybrids-are-green-duh/ http://www.epri-reports.org/PHEV-ExecSum-vol1.pdf It isn’t what we don’t know that gives us trouble, it’s what we know that just ain’t so.

PHEV are beneficial, regardless of what is used to fuel the generating station.

http://climateprogress.org/ 2007/ 07/ 24/ plug-in-hybrids-are-green-duh/
http://www.epri-reports.org/PHEV-ExecSum-vol1.pdf

]]> By: Robert http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12847 Robert Sat, 17 May 2008 22:53:54 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12847 Joe "This is a blog about climate and energy. Peak oil is inseparable as an issue." That's not what it says here: http://climateprogress.org/about "Climate Progress is dedicated to providing the progressive perspective on climate science, climate solutions, and climate politics." All too often the debate about climate change gets derailed into a debate about how to maintain the Happy Motoring Utopia, especially in these times of high energy prices and recession. Joe

“This is a blog about climate and energy. Peak oil is inseparable as an issue.”

That’s not what it says here: http://climateprogress.org/about

“Climate Progress is dedicated to providing the progressive perspective on climate science, climate solutions, and climate politics.”

All too often the debate about climate change gets derailed into a debate about how to maintain the Happy Motoring Utopia, especially in these times of high energy prices and recession.

]]> By: Robert http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12845 Robert Sat, 17 May 2008 22:40:32 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12845 Panic over. This, from Hansard (the official record of UK parliamentary proceedings): http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmhansrd/cm080512/text/80512w0002.htm#0805128000026 ************************************************************** Oil: Prices Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 4 March 2008, Official Report, columns 2263-4W, on oil: prices, whether she plans to revise her projections for the future price of oil in (a) 2010, (b) 2015 and (c) 2020. [204668] Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 9 May 2008]: The Department for Transport uses oil price projections from the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) in its transport modelling. On 2 May 2008, BERR published revised oil price assumptions to (a) $65; (b) $68; and (c) $70 for the years requested. These are in 2007 prices and refer to their central scenario. We are in the process of using these updated projections to make new road traffic and congestion forecasts. The new oil price projections will also be incorporated into the latest versions of Department guidance and software used in developing business cases for funding by promoters. ************************************************************** Better start building more motorways and airports for all that extra traffic. $70 oil in 2020! In your dreams... Panic over. This, from Hansard (the official record of UK parliamentary proceedings):

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/ pa/ cm200708/ cmhansrd/ cm080512/ text/ 80512w0002.htm#0805128000026

**************************************************************
Oil: Prices
Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 4 March 2008, Official Report, columns 2263-4W, on oil: prices, whether she plans to revise her projections for the future price of oil in (a) 2010, (b) 2015 and (c) 2020. [204668]

Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 9 May 2008]: The Department for Transport uses oil price projections from the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) in its transport modelling. On 2 May 2008, BERR published revised oil price assumptions to (a) $65; (b) $68; and (c) $70 for the years requested. These are in 2007 prices and refer to their central scenario.

We are in the process of using these updated projections to make new road traffic and congestion forecasts. The new oil price projections will also be incorporated into the latest versions of Department guidance and software used in developing business cases for funding by promoters.
**************************************************************

Better start building more motorways and airports for all that extra traffic. $70 oil in 2020! In your dreams…

]]> By: paulm http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12837 paulm Sat, 17 May 2008 22:06:34 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12837 theres talk about solar charging packs for EVs. theres talk about solar charging packs for EVs.

]]> By: Robert http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12834 Robert Sat, 17 May 2008 21:44:20 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12834 Earl Killian - before you start rubbishing critisisms of EVs please engage brain department. Around 90% of electricity in the US and UK is generated from coal fired power stations. 1. Coal generates 50% more CO2 than petrol per unit of energy 2. Due to fundamental thermodynamic limitations of the Carnot cycle power stations struggle to achieve 50% efficiency and in practice are much worse than this. Average for the US and UK is under 37% http://www.aie.org.au/melb/material/resource/pwr-eff.htm 3. Include transmission losses, battery charging losses and electric motor losses and what are we left with? Maybe 10% of the original energy in the coal gets used for powering your EV. EV's are only a potential solution if charged from renewable sources. Otherwise they will make the CO2 problem progressively worse. Peak oil offers some hope that vehicle use will be capped - EV's undo that hope. Earl Killian – before you start rubbishing critisisms of EVs please engage brain department.

Around 90% of electricity in the US and UK is generated from coal fired power stations.

1. Coal generates 50% more CO2 than petrol per unit of energy

2. Due to fundamental thermodynamic limitations of the Carnot cycle power stations struggle to achieve 50% efficiency and in practice are much worse than this. Average for the US and UK is under 37% http://www.aie.org.au/ melb/ material/ resource/ pwr-eff.htm

3. Include transmission losses, battery charging losses and electric motor losses and what are we left with? Maybe 10% of the original energy in the coal gets used for powering your EV.

EV’s are only a potential solution if charged from renewable sources. Otherwise they will make the CO2 problem progressively worse. Peak oil offers some hope that vehicle use will be capped – EV’s undo that hope.

]]> By: David B. Benson http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12823 David B. Benson Sat, 17 May 2008 18:35:33 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12823 Earl Killian --- You can buy a snappy Zapcar from that California-based company. Right now. Earl Killian — You can buy a snappy Zapcar from that California-based company. Right now.

]]> By: Earl Killian http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12819 Earl Killian Sat, 17 May 2008 16:42:48 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12819 Robert said, "<i>Plug in electric cars are a bit of a snare and a delusion. If we don’t find them attractive in the UK where petrol is taxed at 200% and domestic electricity at just 5% how are they going to catch on in the States? From a CO2 viewpoint electric vehicles are a really bad idea if the electricity comes from coal fired power stations - which it will be if the only driver is high oil prices.</i>" Plug-in cars are not popular anywhere yet because automakers are not making them in any significant quantity. The demand for them is there, but there is no supply at the moment. That is about to change. Your comment about CO2 emissions is rubbish. See the reply to Nosybear above. Robert said, “Plug in electric cars are a bit of a snare and a delusion. If we don’t find them attractive in the UK where petrol is taxed at 200% and domestic electricity at just 5% how are they going to catch on in the States? From a CO2 viewpoint electric vehicles are a really bad idea if the electricity comes from coal fired power stations – which it will be if the only driver is high oil prices.”

Plug-in cars are not popular anywhere yet because automakers are not making them in any significant quantity. The demand for them is there, but there is no supply at the moment. That is about to change.

Your comment about CO2 emissions is rubbish. See the reply to Nosybear above.

]]> By: Earl Killian http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12818 Earl Killian Sat, 17 May 2008 16:39:24 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12818 Nosybear, why don't you read some serious analysis of plug-ins before posting rubbish like that? Plug-ins have been extensively analyzed, and they are cleaner than gasoline vehicles on a well-to-wheels basis. The EPA <a href="http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm" rel="nofollow">fueleconomy.gov</a> website gives the estimated cost and emissions to drive 15,000 miles of most vehicles on the road. Compare the 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV (a plug-in vehicle) to the 2002 Toyota RAV4 2WD Automatic (a gasoline vehicle). $362/year vs. $2427/year electric vs. gasoline, and 3.9 tons of greenhouse gas vs. 8.0 tons. Over 150,000 miles of the vehicles, the plug-in would save you $20,650 in fuel costs, and since gasoline is rising much faster the electricity, the savings are going to get larger. The air pollution score of the plug-in is 10 vs. 2 for the gasser. Nosybear, why don’t you read some serious analysis of plug-ins before posting rubbish like that? Plug-ins have been extensively analyzed, and they are cleaner than gasoline vehicles on a well-to-wheels basis. The EPA fueleconomy.gov website gives the estimated cost and emissions to drive 15,000 miles of most vehicles on the road. Compare the 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV (a plug-in vehicle) to the 2002 Toyota RAV4 2WD Automatic (a gasoline vehicle). $362/year vs. $2427/year electric vs. gasoline, and 3.9 tons of greenhouse gas vs. 8.0 tons. Over 150,000 miles of the vehicles, the plug-in would save you $20,650 in fuel costs, and since gasoline is rising much faster the electricity, the savings are going to get larger. The air pollution score of the plug-in is 10 vs. 2 for the gasser.

]]> By: Ronald http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12807 Ronald Sat, 17 May 2008 12:16:27 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/16/note-to-mediabush-the-saudis-dont-control-the-price-of-oil/#comment-12807 I wrote in an earlier that the reason for Pres Bush to go to Saudi Arabia and make a public plea for them to produce more oil was only to show the American people that he is doing all he can as President. The political reason is that in this upcoming campaign the Republicans will blame the high oil prices on not having access to ANWR in Alaska and off shore like oil companies would want. I think that they should allow oil production in ANWR. It’s going to happen someday, when there are really high prices and oil shortages if we don’t create a non carbon energy system. The production wouldn’t be enough in volume or quickness to solve today’s problems, but they will be produced someday anyway. I do also remember soon after Pres. Bush came into office and his brother was gov in Florida, that the US gov. and the state of Florida made an agreement to cut off offshore oil exploration if the US gov. gave Florida somewhere around 200 million dollars. There was some US gov. fund to compensate states who lose out on licensing those oil rigs. See if that gets into the main stream media. I wrote in an earlier that the reason for Pres Bush to go to Saudi Arabia and make a public plea for them to produce more oil was only to show the American people that he is doing all he can as President. The political reason is that in this upcoming campaign the Republicans will blame the high oil prices on not having access to ANWR in Alaska and off shore like oil companies would want.

I think that they should allow oil production in ANWR. It’s going to happen someday, when there are really high prices and oil shortages if we don’t create a non carbon energy system. The production wouldn’t be enough in volume or quickness to solve today’s problems, but they will be produced someday anyway.

I do also remember soon after Pres. Bush came into office and his brother was gov in Florida, that the US gov. and the state of Florida made an agreement to cut off offshore oil exploration if the US gov. gave Florida somewhere around 200 million dollars. There was some US gov. fund to compensate states who lose out on licensing those oil rigs. See if that gets into the main stream media.

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