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	<title>Comments on: U.S. driving down 11 Billion miles in March, the sharpest drop in history</title>
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	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/</link>
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		<title>By: Roger Chittum</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13721</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Chittum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 14:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13721</guid>
		<description>Mauri,
Here is US electricity generation from 1980 to 2030 (projected) by energy source.  http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/electricity.html
Here is 1949 to 2006.  http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec8_16.pdf 
In general, the Energy Information Agency website should be your first stop for all sorts of energy graphs, statistics, analyses, explanations, definitions, projections.  http://www.eia.doe.gov/
You can disagree with EIA, especially about projections, but you can&#039;t ignore EIA in the debate.  Regretably, the site is often slow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mauri,<br />
Here is US electricity generation from 1980 to 2030 (projected) by energy source.  <a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/electricity.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/electricity.html</a><br />
Here is 1949 to 2006.  <a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec8_16.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>emeu/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>aer/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>pdf/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>pages/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>sec8_16.pdf</a><br />
In general, the Energy Information Agency website should be your first stop for all sorts of energy graphs, statistics, analyses, explanations, definitions, projections.  <a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/</a><br />
You can disagree with EIA, especially about projections, but you can&#8217;t ignore EIA in the debate.  Regretably, the site is often slow.</p>
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		<title>By: Mauri Pelto</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13719</link>
		<dc:creator>Mauri Pelto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 11:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13719</guid>
		<description>Great graphs on traffic volume.  It is difficult to reverse such a long standing trend, but it has happened.  Is there a similar data set for overall electrical energy demand?  One would expect the changes to be slower in this arena.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great graphs on traffic volume.  It is difficult to reverse such a long standing trend, but it has happened.  Is there a similar data set for overall electrical energy demand?  One would expect the changes to be slower in this arena.</p>
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		<title>By: Nylo</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13644</link>
		<dc:creator>Nylo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 17:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13644</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to mention: people in Europe drive less because they don&#039;t need to drive as much, because everywhere is closer to everywhere, because we have less space available for the same population, and cities didn&#039;t grow with cars in mind. In some big cities in the USA, NY being a nice exception, people will take the car to go to the building in front, just because the streets are so walking-unfriendly. Everything is thought for people to move by car. People live far enough from their works and their comercial centers as to have no other option but to take the car. In Madrid we don&#039;t go to the cinema by car. Everybody lives close enough to good ones. And so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to mention: people in Europe drive less because they don&#8217;t need to drive as much, because everywhere is closer to everywhere, because we have less space available for the same population, and cities didn&#8217;t grow with cars in mind. In some big cities in the USA, NY being a nice exception, people will take the car to go to the building in front, just because the streets are so walking-unfriendly. Everything is thought for people to move by car. People live far enough from their works and their comercial centers as to have no other option but to take the car. In Madrid we don&#8217;t go to the cinema by car. Everybody lives close enough to good ones. And so on.</p>
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		<title>By: charlie</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13642</link>
		<dc:creator>charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 16:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13642</guid>
		<description>Bob:  the problem is in the numbers, not the fat.  240 million cars, being driven an average of 11K miles a year.  (If you use the FHWA figures it is more like 13.5K miles a year).  But that is an average.  That includes me -- who  drives 1500 miles a year (I fly over 150K miles a year so I&#039;m not a carbon monk!)

Average car in Virginia (which is a pretty typical US state) goes 17K  miles  a year.  So moving to a UK model (9K) would be more like a 50% cut.

There is no question that it CAN be done. The Juneau example is proof of that.

But in the nearfield (5 years) that cut is going be extremely painful, and EXPENSIVE.  Expensive in the sense that shopping, vacations, and all those other little things gets cut. It would be like being back in WW2 consumer rationing.

In the longterm, yes, we would adapt.  After all Europe survives quite nicely on $9 gas and lower miles being driven.  But, as countless people have pointed out, they did have 25 to adapt.

That sort of rationing would eviscerate the current US and world economies.  Such a downturn, would in turn, reduce world wide demand for oil.  And the price would fall....


The question is how to create a soft landing.   The more present question is how to stabilize and reduce the number of miles being driven.   Gas taxes are not going to work in this climate.  Asking everyone to car-share is not going to work.  CAFE is not going to work either.  Joe&#039;s move to plug-in hybrids DOES work, but not in the next 5 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob:  the problem is in the numbers, not the fat.  240 million cars, being driven an average of 11K miles a year.  (If you use the FHWA figures it is more like 13.5K miles a year).  But that is an average.  That includes me &#8212; who  drives 1500 miles a year (I fly over 150K miles a year so I&#8217;m not a carbon monk!)</p>
<p>Average car in Virginia (which is a pretty typical US state) goes 17K  miles  a year.  So moving to a UK model (9K) would be more like a 50% cut.</p>
<p>There is no question that it CAN be done. The Juneau example is proof of that.</p>
<p>But in the nearfield (5 years) that cut is going be extremely painful, and EXPENSIVE.  Expensive in the sense that shopping, vacations, and all those other little things gets cut. It would be like being back in WW2 consumer rationing.</p>
<p>In the longterm, yes, we would adapt.  After all Europe survives quite nicely on $9 gas and lower miles being driven.  But, as countless people have pointed out, they did have 25 to adapt.</p>
<p>That sort of rationing would eviscerate the current US and world economies.  Such a downturn, would in turn, reduce world wide demand for oil.  And the price would fall&#8230;.</p>
<p>The question is how to create a soft landing.   The more present question is how to stabilize and reduce the number of miles being driven.   Gas taxes are not going to work in this climate.  Asking everyone to car-share is not going to work.  CAFE is not going to work either.  Joe&#8217;s move to plug-in hybrids DOES work, but not in the next 5 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Wallace</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13621</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 04:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13621</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry.  It just takes a little imagination to get from where we are to 20% less.

How many kids are driven to school with only one or two kids and one parent in the car?  All those empty seats.

How many of us run errands more than once per week?  Personally I go to town once and week and am now cutting back to twice a month.  Run gas up to $10 a gallon and I&#039;ll go once a month.

How many of us go out to dinner or to the movies with only two people in the car?  Need I go on?

I well remember the gas crunch of a few decades back.  People got creative.  Some people slept in their offices one or more nights per week.  Some people stayed at friend&#039;s or co-workers houses one or more nights per week.  I know people who drove their RV to the city and slept in it a few nights a week.

Then there are other creative ways to save gas.  We don&#039;t really need to go shopping as much as we need stuff that&#039;s in stores to get to our houses.  Perfect for online ordering and regularly scheduled delivery service.  SuperStore drops off your groceries, prescriptions, and new bloomers.

We&#039;ve got a company delivering food from multiple restaurants in our area now.  No reason that every restaurant need run a separate car to drop of pizzas and Chinese.

There&#039;s a lot of elasticity in our transportation system.  We can even walk, ride a bike, or take the bus part of the time.

And then there are the PHEVs/BEVs coming on the market now and in the next year or so.  Those move us off the petroleum teat and onto off-peak electricity, with which we are amply supplied.

Very few of us are screwed.  We just need to think about different ways to do the same old things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry.  It just takes a little imagination to get from where we are to 20% less.</p>
<p>How many kids are driven to school with only one or two kids and one parent in the car?  All those empty seats.</p>
<p>How many of us run errands more than once per week?  Personally I go to town once and week and am now cutting back to twice a month.  Run gas up to $10 a gallon and I&#8217;ll go once a month.</p>
<p>How many of us go out to dinner or to the movies with only two people in the car?  Need I go on?</p>
<p>I well remember the gas crunch of a few decades back.  People got creative.  Some people slept in their offices one or more nights per week.  Some people stayed at friend&#8217;s or co-workers houses one or more nights per week.  I know people who drove their RV to the city and slept in it a few nights a week.</p>
<p>Then there are other creative ways to save gas.  We don&#8217;t really need to go shopping as much as we need stuff that&#8217;s in stores to get to our houses.  Perfect for online ordering and regularly scheduled delivery service.  SuperStore drops off your groceries, prescriptions, and new bloomers.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve got a company delivering food from multiple restaurants in our area now.  No reason that every restaurant need run a separate car to drop of pizzas and Chinese.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot of elasticity in our transportation system.  We can even walk, ride a bike, or take the bus part of the time.</p>
<p>And then there are the PHEVs/BEVs coming on the market now and in the next year or so.  Those move us off the petroleum teat and onto off-peak electricity, with which we are amply supplied.</p>
<p>Very few of us are screwed.  We just need to think about different ways to do the same old things.</p>
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		<title>By: charlie</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13619</link>
		<dc:creator>charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 03:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13619</guid>
		<description>Roger, the problem I have with CAFE is we&#039;ve hit the low hanging fruit.  Get rid of 10 MPG SUVs, and there is not much else to do.  A BMW M5 and a Toyota Corolla get the same MPG when they are on city streets.  Europeans get about 25 MPG on average in the fleets, currently we get about 20 even including legacy SUVs.  


The FHWA data, I&#039;m sure we can  both agree, is flawed in many ways.  Yes,  I agree engines are more efficient and cars are too heavy.  But if we go  back to 1987 size cars -- with their attendant safety risks --  we&#039;ll just be going from 20 to maybe 27 MPG averages.  The CAFE numbers are also somewhat imaginary --  not based on how you use the car.

And Bob, yes.  One day a week car pooling would greatly reduce the number o miles being driven by CARS that COMMUTE.  However, there are 240 millions cars in the US, and they are not all being used for commuting. And that 11K mileage figure is also an imaginary average. The miles are also being used for shopping and other transport.  My hypothesis is that even if you forced every single American to share a car to work, you would barely get to UK levels of miles being used.  Too much of our transport is NON-JOB-COMMUNTING, and we need other solutions to get those miles down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger, the problem I have with CAFE is we&#8217;ve hit the low hanging fruit.  Get rid of 10 MPG SUVs, and there is not much else to do.  A BMW M5 and a Toyota Corolla get the same MPG when they are on city streets.  Europeans get about 25 MPG on average in the fleets, currently we get about 20 even including legacy SUVs.  </p>
<p>The FHWA data, I&#8217;m sure we can  both agree, is flawed in many ways.  Yes,  I agree engines are more efficient and cars are too heavy.  But if we go  back to 1987 size cars &#8212; with their attendant safety risks &#8212;  we&#8217;ll just be going from 20 to maybe 27 MPG averages.  The CAFE numbers are also somewhat imaginary &#8212;  not based on how you use the car.</p>
<p>And Bob, yes.  One day a week car pooling would greatly reduce the number o miles being driven by CARS that COMMUTE.  However, there are 240 millions cars in the US, and they are not all being used for commuting. And that 11K mileage figure is also an imaginary average. The miles are also being used for shopping and other transport.  My hypothesis is that even if you forced every single American to share a car to work, you would barely get to UK levels of miles being used.  Too much of our transport is NON-JOB-COMMUNTING, and we need other solutions to get those miles down.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13610</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 23:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13610</guid>
		<description>Roger Chittum

&quot;Let’s not forget that reduced consumption is only one of the effects of high energy prices. &quot;

This statement is back to front. High energy prices are a product of high demand and limited supply. Your statement only has relevance in a segment of the global economy and shows that you are not thinking about climate change (the subject of this blog) but about the fate of the US economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger Chittum</p>
<p>&#8220;Let’s not forget that reduced consumption is only one of the effects of high energy prices. &#8221;</p>
<p>This statement is back to front. High energy prices are a product of high demand and limited supply. Your statement only has relevance in a segment of the global economy and shows that you are not thinking about climate change (the subject of this blog) but about the fate of the US economy.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Chittum</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13608</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Chittum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 23:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13608</guid>
		<description>It definitely looks like the biggest vehicle miles decline since 1983.  But according to this longer EIA series, gasoline consumption dropped 11% from 1978 to 1980 and then stayed essentially level through 1984 before slowly climbing again.  http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mgfupus1A.htm The reduced consumption held even though real gasoline prices were declining after 1981 and by 1986 were below where they had been in 1978. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/fsheets/real_prices.html   Hmmm.  That looks to me like a CAFE effect.  

Notice the slight leveling off of miles traveled during the 1991 and 2001 recessions--per the FHWA data.  Also, CAFE standards for light trucks were going up again as of 2004.  Both of those add to the price effect, which I agree is real.  I don&#039;t think there is any way to know what the short-term and medium-term gasoline price-demand elasticity functions are.  Why bet the planet that you do know that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It definitely looks like the biggest vehicle miles decline since 1983.  But according to this longer EIA series, gasoline consumption dropped 11% from 1978 to 1980 and then stayed essentially level through 1984 before slowly climbing again.  <a href="http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mgfupus1A.htm" rel="nofollow">http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mgfupus1A.htm</a> The reduced consumption held even though real gasoline prices were declining after 1981 and by 1986 were below where they had been in 1978. <a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/fsheets/real_prices.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>emeu/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>steo/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>pub/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>fsheets/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>real_prices.html</a>   Hmmm.  That looks to me like a CAFE effect.  </p>
<p>Notice the slight leveling off of miles traveled during the 1991 and 2001 recessions&#8211;per the FHWA data.  Also, CAFE standards for light trucks were going up again as of 2004.  Both of those add to the price effect, which I agree is real.  I don&#8217;t think there is any way to know what the short-term and medium-term gasoline price-demand elasticity functions are.  Why bet the planet that you do know that?</p>
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		<title>By: JCH</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13606</link>
		<dc:creator>JCH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 22:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13606</guid>
		<description>The Federal Reserve had nothing to do with triggering the recession of 1983?  Looks to me like they did it on purpose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Federal Reserve had nothing to do with triggering the recession of 1983?  Looks to me like they did it on purpose.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Chittum</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13602</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Chittum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 21:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/28/us-driving-dropped-11-billion-miles-in-march-the-sharpest-drop-in-history/#comment-13602</guid>
		<description>charlie, you&#039;re not the only skeptic about CAFE.  That&#039;s why I collected key data and links to sources in this post on my blog.  http://www.realitybase.org/journal/2008/4/23/cafe-standards-are-much-better-than-high-gasoline-prices.html
Fuel efficiency peaked in about 1986 after which CAFE provided a floor to prevent backsliding during 17 years of cheap gas.  But technology continued to improve, and the industry used it to add back more weight (up 29% since 1987) and more horsepower (up 89%).  With no new technology we can move to a new plateau using the recently-raised CAFE standards.  With hybrids we can go beyond that.  And then with plug-in electrics . . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>charlie, you&#8217;re not the only skeptic about CAFE.  That&#8217;s why I collected key data and links to sources in this post on my blog.  <a href="http://www.realitybase.org/journal/2008/4/23/cafe-standards-are-much-better-than-high-gasoline-prices.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.realitybase.org/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>journal/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>2008/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>4/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>23/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>cafe-standards-are-much-better-than-high-gasoline-prices.html</a><br />
Fuel efficiency peaked in about 1986 after which CAFE provided a floor to prevent backsliding during 17 years of cheap gas.  But technology continued to improve, and the industry used it to add back more weight (up 29% since 1987) and more horsepower (up 89%).  With no new technology we can move to a new plateau using the recently-raised CAFE standards.  With hybrids we can go beyond that.  And then with plug-in electrics . . . .</p>
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