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	<title>Comments on: Dear Governor Greenwash&#8230;.</title>
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	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: key  ödemeleri</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-19003</link>
		<dc:creator>key  ödemeleri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:13:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>And thanks too :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And thanks too <img src='http://climateprogress.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: sohbet</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-19002</link>
		<dc:creator>sohbet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13714</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 01:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13714</guid>
		<description>In North America, according to

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=green-buildings-may-be-cheapest-way-to-slow-global-warming

buildings contribute about 35% of the GHG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In North America, according to</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=green-buildings-may-be-cheapest-way-to-slow-global-warming" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciam.com/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>article.cfm?id=green-buildings-may-be-cheapest-way-to-slow-global-warming</a></p>
<p>buildings contribute about 35% of the GHG.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13704</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 19:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13704</guid>
		<description>Wonhyo,
I don&#039;t think what you wrote is what would happen.   If I use little or no carbon fuels, walk everywhere I need to go, live in small apartment, I would want carbon taxes high so my account would grow big without much of my input.   I would want my state and region of the country to take advantage of low carbon energy in place of high carbon energy and then stick the high carbon taxes on other states and regions.

But for lots of reasons, some mentioned in the article, the idea is a non starter.   there are much better ways to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonhyo,<br />
I don&#8217;t think what you wrote is what would happen.   If I use little or no carbon fuels, walk everywhere I need to go, live in small apartment, I would want carbon taxes high so my account would grow big without much of my input.   I would want my state and region of the country to take advantage of low carbon energy in place of high carbon energy and then stick the high carbon taxes on other states and regions.</p>
<p>But for lots of reasons, some mentioned in the article, the idea is a non starter.   there are much better ways to do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Wonhyo</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13693</link>
		<dc:creator>Wonhyo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 14:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13693</guid>
		<description>If the individual dividend is proportional to taxes paid, and taxes paid are proportional to carbon emitted, what incentive is there to reduce carbon emissions?  Individual greed would lead people to encourage more carbon emissions.  Given the economic principles ingrained in our consciousness, many people would support &lt;i&gt;lowering the carbon tax&lt;/i&gt; to increase carbon emission, increase the total carbon tax collected, and increase the individual dividend.  If we were to successfully zero out carbon emissions, the dividend would also get zeroed out, working against the individual greed that drives capitalism.

&quot;Tax and dividend&quot; sounds like it would backfire in our culture.  If there&#039;s something I&#039;m missing, please let me know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the individual dividend is proportional to taxes paid, and taxes paid are proportional to carbon emitted, what incentive is there to reduce carbon emissions?  Individual greed would lead people to encourage more carbon emissions.  Given the economic principles ingrained in our consciousness, many people would support <i>lowering the carbon tax</i> to increase carbon emission, increase the total carbon tax collected, and increase the individual dividend.  If we were to successfully zero out carbon emissions, the dividend would also get zeroed out, working against the individual greed that drives capitalism.</p>
<p>&#8220;Tax and dividend&#8221; sounds like it would backfire in our culture.  If there&#8217;s something I&#8217;m missing, please let me know.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mashey</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13679</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mashey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 04:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13679</guid>
		<description>Oops, sorry, malformed html, the second reference was supposed  to be:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/03/holiday-from-sanity/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;John Quiggin&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, sorry, malformed html, the second reference was supposed  to be:<br />
<a href="http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/03/holiday-from-sanity/" rel="nofollow">John Quiggin</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mashey</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13678</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mashey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 04:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13678</guid>
		<description>From here, it doesn&#039;t seem like you&#039;re that far apart, more like people arguing whether a given CO2 rise will generate +1.9C or 2.0 C...

Something similar was discussed &lt;a href=&quot;http://econ4obama.blogspot.com/2008/04/what-to-do-about-gas-prices.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;by  Jonah Gelbach&lt;/a&gt;, and &lt;a&gt;.

The issue to me seems:
a) To get a usefully high and plannably-rising carbon tax
b) While giving people breathing space to adapt
c) And get it through the politics

ALSO, it&#039;s probably not enough alone, as an unintended consequence be a stronger push on coal...  [rising oil prices have already pushed the price of gas faster than most people&#039;s idea of a carbon tax.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From here, it doesn&#8217;t seem like you&#8217;re that far apart, more like people arguing whether a given CO2 rise will generate +1.9C or 2.0 C&#8230;</p>
<p>Something similar was discussed <a href="http://econ4obama.blogspot.com/2008/04/what-to-do-about-gas-prices.html" rel="nofollow">by  Jonah Gelbach</a>, and <a>.</p>
<p>The issue to me seems:<br />
a) To get a usefully high and plannably-rising carbon tax<br />
b) While giving people breathing space to adapt<br />
c) And get it through the politics</p>
<p>ALSO, it&#8217;s probably not enough alone, as an unintended consequence be a stronger push on coal&#8230;  [rising oil prices have already pushed the price of gas faster than most people's idea of a carbon tax.]</a></p>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13670</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 23:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i don&#039;t see hansen arguing against bans, regs, research, deployment in this.

&lt;blockquote&gt;For a carbon price to be effective it must, perforce, be large enough to cause a big impact on the public -- otherwise it will not help bring about consumer changes that are needed to reduce emissions fast enough.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

operative word: &quot;help&quot; -- the dividend isn&#039;t the whole consumer program.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Although energy prices will rise, you can bet your bottom dollar that lower and middle income people will figure out how to reduce energy use enough that, overall, they come out ahead. And in doing so, moving to more energy-efficient products, they will spur economic activity and create jobs.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

operative word: &quot;moving&quot; -- the methods and equipment have to be available, at scale. if he were advocating taxes alone, i&#039;d expect him to describe consumers &quot;demanding&quot; more efficient tech.

oh, about the rich people getting refunds, i disagree. in the long run we are aiming for, aren&#039;t we, an international personal resource allotment, loosely, which means things like cap-and-dividend, which are designed to work as an effective soft-ration -- you get a certain use for free, down and down the cap staircase -- and, with prices set high but typical use covered, above the effectively-untaxed usage level it&#039;s up to the consumer to figure if it&#039;s worth the money -- it means dividends should be distributed evenly to every breathing person, with the problem of ferners and black market labor to be dealt with as shabbily and self-involvedly as usual.

hansen&#039;s said recently he thinks there should be bans on extraction. he&#039;s no deregulation zealot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i don&#8217;t see hansen arguing against bans, regs, research, deployment in this.</p>
<blockquote><p>For a carbon price to be effective it must, perforce, be large enough to cause a big impact on the public &#8212; otherwise it will not help bring about consumer changes that are needed to reduce emissions fast enough.</p></blockquote>
<p>operative word: &#8220;help&#8221; &#8212; the dividend isn&#8217;t the whole consumer program.</p>
<blockquote><p>Although energy prices will rise, you can bet your bottom dollar that lower and middle income people will figure out how to reduce energy use enough that, overall, they come out ahead. And in doing so, moving to more energy-efficient products, they will spur economic activity and create jobs.</p></blockquote>
<p>operative word: &#8220;moving&#8221; &#8212; the methods and equipment have to be available, at scale. if he were advocating taxes alone, i&#8217;d expect him to describe consumers &#8220;demanding&#8221; more efficient tech.</p>
<p>oh, about the rich people getting refunds, i disagree. in the long run we are aiming for, aren&#8217;t we, an international personal resource allotment, loosely, which means things like cap-and-dividend, which are designed to work as an effective soft-ration &#8212; you get a certain use for free, down and down the cap staircase &#8212; and, with prices set high but typical use covered, above the effectively-untaxed usage level it&#8217;s up to the consumer to figure if it&#8217;s worth the money &#8212; it means dividends should be distributed evenly to every breathing person, with the problem of ferners and black market labor to be dealt with as shabbily and self-involvedly as usual.</p>
<p>hansen&#8217;s said recently he thinks there should be bans on extraction. he&#8217;s no deregulation zealot.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13668</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 23:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Joe - I also think that the tax and dividend mechanism is a bit weak and spurious, but that is not the main theme of the piece. The full text is available here:

http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20080529_DearGovernorGreenwash.pdf

Hansen&#039;s main theme (as ever) is to argue for a moratorium on coal fired power stations and on unconventional oil (oil sands, oil shale). This I definitely do agree with. In the corrupt world of American institutional politics I am amazed that someone as outspoken and Hansen ever rose to the top at NASA - and managed to stay there. He is one of the few people with real passion and integrity (on climate change) with a position of real influence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe &#8211; I also think that the tax and dividend mechanism is a bit weak and spurious, but that is not the main theme of the piece. The full text is available here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20080529_DearGovernorGreenwash.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.columbia.edu/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>~jeh1/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>mailings/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>20080529_DearGovernorGreenwash.pdf</a></p>
<p>Hansen&#8217;s main theme (as ever) is to argue for a moratorium on coal fired power stations and on unconventional oil (oil sands, oil shale). This I definitely do agree with. In the corrupt world of American institutional politics I am amazed that someone as outspoken and Hansen ever rose to the top at NASA &#8211; and managed to stay there. He is one of the few people with real passion and integrity (on climate change) with a position of real influence.</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13662</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 21:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/29/dear-governor-greenwash/#comment-13662</guid>
		<description>Joe --- I was going to comment, but decided to pass as I don&#039;t understand what motivates people (beyond obvious price signals).

Instead I&#039;ll ask why &quot;we are going to need major federal support for clean energy&quot; which I take means pouring tax $$ into it.  In a more ideal world, just removing subsidies for fossil fuels ought to do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe &#8212; I was going to comment, but decided to pass as I don&#8217;t understand what motivates people (beyond obvious price signals).</p>
<p>Instead I&#8217;ll ask why &#8220;we are going to need major federal support for clean energy&#8221; which I take means pouring tax $$ into it.  In a more ideal world, just removing subsidies for fossil fuels ought to do?</p>
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