Comments on: Tropical Rain Forests: Bad to Worse http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:38:28 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1 By: Juliette http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/#comment-15269 Juliette Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:13:09 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/#comment-15269 The first easy step to take in order to prevent deforestation would be to implement the existing laws. Illegally logged wood is still being sold all over the world, without raising much interest. The EU tried the path of self regulation with the FLEGT program - but as most self-regulating programs, you can imagine how that went. It's not even just climate too - it's human rights (tribes deprived of their land), biodiversity (natural habitat cleared out)... Thankfully, it's not all gloom and doom, and there is yet one thing we can do: writing to the EU Commission and ask them to pass the legislation to finally make illegal wood well... illegal: http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/forests/eu-ban-illegal-timber The first easy step to take in order to prevent deforestation would be to implement the existing laws. Illegally logged wood is still being sold all over the world, without raising much interest. The EU tried the path of self regulation with the FLEGT program - but as most self-regulating programs, you can imagine how that went. It’s not even just climate too - it’s human rights (tribes deprived of their land), biodiversity (natural habitat cleared out)…
Thankfully, it’s not all gloom and doom, and there is yet one thing we can do: writing to the EU Commission and ask them to pass the legislation to finally make illegal wood well… illegal:
http://www.greenpeace.org/ international/ campaigns/ forests/ eu-ban-illegal-timber

]]> By: Earl Killian http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/#comment-15288 Earl Killian Tue, 01 Jul 2008 18:50:41 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/#comment-15288 Thank you Juliette. What about in the US? Thank you Juliette. What about in the US?

]]> By: Harold Pierce Jr http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/#comment-15381 Harold Pierce Jr Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:32:36 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/#comment-15381 It is hypocritical of the world to criticize Brazil for clearing the forest for agricultural because vast areas of the native forests in western europe and the eatern US were cleared for agriculural and for construction of cities, town and villages before 1900. Consider the Great Plains. Most of all of the original good arable land in the US and Canada has been cleared framing. Wild grasses have been mostly replaced with domesticated cereal grains, and the buffalo with cows and cattle. It is hypocritical of the world to criticize Brazil for clearing the forest for agricultural because vast areas of the native forests in western europe and the eatern US were cleared for agriculural and for construction of cities, town and villages before 1900.

Consider the Great Plains. Most of all of the original good arable land in the US and Canada has been cleared framing. Wild grasses have been mostly replaced with domesticated cereal grains, and the buffalo with cows and cattle.

]]> By: Jonas http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/#comment-15387 Jonas Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:00:52 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/#comment-15387 I think Harold Pierce Jr is the realist here. It's very easy for wealthy Westerners to criticize countries who are making the transition to modernity. Palm oil has lifted the Malay population out of poverty (it is Malaysia's second most important product after hydrocarbons). Agriculture in Brazil has pushed down food prices globally, making it possible for hundreds of millions of people to achieve a basic standard of living. So the question is which credible economic alternatives there are. Just telling these countries to stop deforesting is not an option. Putting a carbon price on trees is too weak an offer (a dead forest is worth much more than the carbon in its trees). Creating a market for ecosystem services for which Euro-Americans are willing to pay, is a minimal requirement. Add to this that if we want to halt deforestation, you have to hand over trillions to these countries, so they can leapfrog into post-modernity. Because deforestation has lead, historically (in the US and the EU that is), to improved mobility, access to social services, a wealth of affordable food and forest products, and access to modernity proper. So are we willing to spend 5 maybe 10% of our incomes on halting deforestation in the tropics? If we aren't, we should basically shut up. I think Harold Pierce Jr is the realist here. It’s very easy for wealthy Westerners to criticize countries who are making the transition to modernity.

Palm oil has lifted the Malay population out of poverty (it is Malaysia’s second most important product after hydrocarbons). Agriculture in Brazil has pushed down food prices globally, making it possible for hundreds of millions of people to achieve a basic standard of living.

So the question is which credible economic alternatives there are. Just telling these countries to stop deforesting is not an option. Putting a carbon price on trees is too weak an offer (a dead forest is worth much more than the carbon in its trees). Creating a market for ecosystem services for which Euro-Americans are willing to pay, is a minimal requirement.

Add to this that if we want to halt deforestation, you have to hand over trillions to these countries, so they can leapfrog into post-modernity. Because deforestation has lead, historically (in the US and the EU that is), to improved mobility, access to social services, a wealth of affordable food and forest products, and access to modernity proper.

So are we willing to spend 5 maybe 10% of our incomes on halting deforestation in the tropics? If we aren’t, we should basically shut up.

]]> By: Juliette http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/#comment-15567 Juliette Mon, 07 Jul 2008 12:19:46 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/01/tropical-rain-forests-bad-to-worse/#comment-15567 Hi, The US has just passed a similar piece of legislation, forbidding the import of illegally logged timber - the first of its kind. I haven't read it, but what I gather from the comments of colleagues who have is that it doesn't go as far as it could in controlling the real origin of the timber. There are still a few loopholes, and since what we'd like is a law to close a giant loophole, we'd better make sure we don't leave any. By the way, to halt deforestation, you do have to hand in a bit of money - billions, not trillions. If that's the price to pay to make sure we don't keep screwing up in the future, sure, why not. The excuse of "western countries have done it in the past, we have no right to expect developing countries not to do it" is wearing a bit thin. Learning from past mistakes should be a priority. Hell, we don't let developing countries commit genocide or continue slavery just because western countries did it in the past. Why should that excuse be of any value for deforestation, which currently drives 20% of climate change? Hi,
The US has just passed a similar piece of legislation, forbidding the import of illegally logged timber - the first of its kind. I haven’t read it, but what I gather from the comments of colleagues who have is that it doesn’t go as far as it could in controlling the real origin of the timber. There are still a few loopholes, and since what we’d like is a law to close a giant loophole, we’d better make sure we don’t leave any.
By the way, to halt deforestation, you do have to hand in a bit of money - billions, not trillions. If that’s the price to pay to make sure we don’t keep screwing up in the future, sure, why not.
The excuse of “western countries have done it in the past, we have no right to expect developing countries not to do it” is wearing a bit thin. Learning from past mistakes should be a priority. Hell, we don’t let developing countries commit genocide or continue slavery just because western countries did it in the past. Why should that excuse be of any value for deforestation, which currently drives 20% of climate change?

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