Comments on: A bone to pick with T. Boone Pickens http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:55:04 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Wind Power http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-60304 Wind Power Wed, 27 May 2009 19:24:58 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-60304 I was just looking for something like this last week! I was just looking for something like this last week!

]]> By: Brooks http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-21240 Brooks Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:39:18 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-21240 I entirely endorse the plan put forward here. Moving all cars onto the electric grid and cleaning up electricity production should be the core of any policy. Indeed, Pickens Plan is a welcome step on the wind front, but digresses on the natural gas vehicles front. You may want to have a look at the pros and cons of the Pickens plan we've aggregated on Debatepedia: http://wiki.idebate.org/index.php/Debate:_Pickens_US_energy_plan I entirely endorse the plan put forward here. Moving all cars onto the electric grid and cleaning up electricity production should be the core of any policy. Indeed, Pickens Plan is a welcome step on the wind front, but digresses on the natural gas vehicles front. You may want to have a look at the pros and cons of the Pickens plan we’ve aggregated on Debatepedia:

http://wiki.idebate.org/ index.php/ Debate:_Pickens_US_energy_plan

]]> By: RhapsodyInGlue http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16922 RhapsodyInGlue Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:38:30 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16922 @Stratocruiser To answer your question about the heat generated in burning fossil fuels... it is a very small fraction of the amount of energy reaching the earth from the sun. This is the fact that makes solar and wind (both a result of the suns energy) so viable as an alternative. The total reaching the earth is vastly larger than the amount of energy contained in all the fossil fuels we burn. So the heat directly generated by combustion would likely be lost in the uncertainty of climate models and is thus probably not included. @Stratocruiser

To answer your question about the heat generated in burning fossil fuels… it is a very small fraction of the amount of energy reaching the earth from the sun. This is the fact that makes solar and wind (both a result of the suns energy) so viable as an alternative. The total reaching the earth is vastly larger than the amount of energy contained in all the fossil fuels we burn.

So the heat directly generated by combustion would likely be lost in the uncertainty of climate models and is thus probably not included.

]]> By: Chredon http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16912 Chredon Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:07:17 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16912 And a follow-up on my post: there is already a home-use item called a Phill - it compresses natural gas from your utility lines and loads it into the car. It's expensive (~$4000), but the compressed gas from your utility line is less expensive than the gas sold at public stations, so you'll recoup eventually. And many places have tax breaks or rebates on them. The other issue is that they are slow - it compresses one gallon per half hour. But that's still fast enough for an overnight fill-up. And a follow-up on my post: there is already a home-use item called a Phill – it compresses natural gas from your utility lines and loads it into the car. It’s expensive (~$4000), but the compressed gas from your utility line is less expensive than the gas sold at public stations, so you’ll recoup eventually. And many places have tax breaks or rebates on them. The other issue is that they are slow – it compresses one gallon per half hour. But that’s still fast enough for an overnight fill-up.

]]> By: Bill Becker http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16908 Bill Becker Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:57:04 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16908 As I read these responses, I realized I was not clear enough about how I suggest we make best use of natural gas (of the petroleum variety). I proposed that we use natural gas to back out coal in EXISTING coal plants. If we employ low-carbon or no-carbon resources for new power generation, as we should, we still have the problem of carbon missions from current conventional coal plants. I'm told it's impractical to convert a conventional pulverized coal plant to clean coal technology, if and when clean coal technology comes on-line. Jim Hansen's latest work leads me to conclude that we need to back out of all conventional coal as quickly as possible. That means constructing no more conventional generating plants and, ideally, phasing out coal in the plants that already are, or soon will be, in operation. As I implied in the post, we need to crunch the numbers to know what our use of natural gas would mean, in whatever sector, for additional drilling and imports. As I read these responses, I realized I was not clear enough about how I suggest we make best use of natural gas (of the petroleum variety). I proposed that we use natural gas to back out coal in EXISTING coal plants. If we employ low-carbon or no-carbon resources for new power generation, as we should, we still have the problem of carbon missions from current conventional coal plants. I’m told it’s impractical to convert a conventional pulverized coal plant to clean coal technology, if and when clean coal technology comes on-line. Jim Hansen’s latest work leads me to conclude that we need to back out of all conventional coal as quickly as possible. That means constructing no more conventional generating plants and, ideally, phasing out coal in the plants that already are, or soon will be, in operation. As I implied in the post, we need to crunch the numbers to know what our use of natural gas would mean, in whatever sector, for additional drilling and imports.

]]> By: Chredon http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16888 Chredon Thu, 31 Jul 2008 04:59:27 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16888 I don't think we should be so quick to eliminate coal as an alternative if it can be made cleaner. The US has large quantities of coal, and using it would take us off Saudi Arabia's client list. That having been said, though, I think it is in our BEST interests to move everything we can to renewable resources. Wind and solar have great potential not only because they are clean, but because you don't have to buy fuel for them. There is also great potential in moving water - generators in rivers, tidal basins, etc. You don't need Hoover Dam anymore to generate hydroelectric power, all you need is running water. It's going to be hard to convince the industry to build a CNG distribution network if they know that they're only one battery breakthrough away from uselessness. But most cities already have natural gas distribution for home heating. Why not just put a pipe in your garage, connect your car, and fill up from there? In my house the water heater uses natural gas, and guess where it is? Right, it's in the garage! Convenient, isn't it? As for Pickens' Plan, I can tell you that there isn't a billionaire on Earth who is going to raise a finger to save the planet unless he's figured out a way to make money off it. Remember, early in the Bush Administration, they ditched research into batteries and solar and concentrated on Fuel Cells. Why? Because Fuel Cells require hydrogen distribution, which would replace gasoline distribution, and still allow the used-to-be oil companies to control the supply and manipulate the market. I don’t think we should be so quick to eliminate coal as an alternative if it can be made cleaner. The US has large quantities of coal, and using it would take us off Saudi Arabia’s client list. That having been said, though, I think it is in our BEST interests to move everything we can to renewable resources. Wind and solar have great potential not only because they are clean, but because you don’t have to buy fuel for them. There is also great potential in moving water – generators in rivers, tidal basins, etc. You don’t need Hoover Dam anymore to generate hydroelectric power, all you need is running water.

It’s going to be hard to convince the industry to build a CNG distribution network if they know that they’re only one battery breakthrough away from uselessness. But most cities already have natural gas distribution for home heating. Why not just put a pipe in your garage, connect your car, and fill up from there? In my house the water heater uses natural gas, and guess where it is? Right, it’s in the garage! Convenient, isn’t it?

As for Pickens’ Plan, I can tell you that there isn’t a billionaire on Earth who is going to raise a finger to save the planet unless he’s figured out a way to make money off it. Remember, early in the Bush Administration, they ditched research into batteries and solar and concentrated on Fuel Cells. Why? Because Fuel Cells require hydrogen distribution, which would replace gasoline distribution, and still allow the used-to-be oil companies to control the supply and manipulate the market.

]]> By: Duane Wood http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16881 Duane Wood Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:47:22 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16881 I,m afraid I'll have to disagree with the critical article regarding Pickens Plan. Using natual gas in power plants is like using good scotch to wash dishes. We would achive a substantial reduction in carbon emissions by using it in vehicles. It also could act as a stepping stone for hydrogen since hydrogen could use much of the CNG infrastructure. Electric cars still have a problem with range that will continue into the forseeable future. Some have said the electric car is the car of the future and always will be. Wishful thinking will not solve our energy problems. Pickens plan will get us on track to move forward. I,m afraid I’ll have to disagree with the critical article regarding Pickens Plan. Using natual gas in power plants is like using good scotch to wash dishes. We would achive a substantial reduction in carbon emissions by using it in vehicles. It also could act as a stepping stone for hydrogen since hydrogen could use much of the CNG infrastructure.
Electric cars still have a problem with range that will continue into the forseeable future. Some have said the electric car is the car of the future and always will be. Wishful thinking will not solve our energy problems. Pickens plan will get us on track to move forward.

]]> By: Robert Lewis http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16880 Robert Lewis Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:27:49 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16880 Since we could not find a vehicle registered for T. Boone Pickens, the oil man on television, see what vehicle his wife drives http://webofdeception.com/#pickensauto Since we could not find a vehicle registered for T. Boone Pickens, the oil man on television, see what vehicle his wife drives

http://webofdeception.com/#pickensauto

]]> By: Bob Sandusky http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16874 Bob Sandusky Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:14:18 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16874 I just read my sister's contract from Pickens to lease her farmland for wind generated electricity. I'm not a lawyer, but the devil is in the details. The previous contract she got had a clause that converted her rights to leave the assests of the lease to T.Boone's heirs and assigns, not hers. That caused such a stink that they rewrote the contract and tried again. This time there are two little insignificant phrases that can make the whole wind generation project a sham. First all underground and above ground leases permit the installation of "other utilities". Those not being described. And another phrase that allows the Pickens organization to sublet the right-of-way to whomever HE chooses. So, since Texas has created a water district over the area in Roberts County where T Boone "just happens" to have most of the water rights bought up, and since with that water district comes the right to exercise eminent domain for pipline right of way; the question arises how does the Pickens water venture benefit from the wind venture in the exact same area? Well it is simple. Pickens doesn't have to erect one wind turbine generator or do any gas or electric transmission to make a killing. All he has to do is sublet the right-of-way to the water district for their pipeline. They take the expense of installation and he collects for the sub-lease of the use of the underground right-of-way. He then pays the landowners a much lower price for the primary rent and pockets the difference. Then, of course, he sells his water to the water district who sends it to Dallas over his right-of-way. And if the landowner doesn't want to lease to Pickens? Well, the water district will take the right-of-way by eminent domain! The (not rich) farmers and landowners who are hoping for some income from the wind generation to help them keep their farms will be surprised to find out that all they have is a discounted lease of their right-of-way which T Boone can leverage into a huge profit by only doing a lot of talk and paying fees to some sharp and sneaky lawyers! Farmers & Landowners, DON'T SIGN! Or at least talk to the competition before you do. I just read my sister’s contract from Pickens to lease her farmland for wind generated electricity. I’m not a lawyer, but the devil is in the details. The previous contract she got had a clause that converted her rights to leave the assests of the lease to T.Boone’s heirs and assigns, not hers. That caused such a stink that they rewrote the contract and tried again.

This time there are two little insignificant phrases that can make the whole wind generation project a sham. First all underground and above ground leases permit the installation of “other utilities”. Those not being described. And another phrase that allows the Pickens organization to sublet the right-of-way to whomever HE chooses.

So, since Texas has created a water district over the area in Roberts County where T Boone “just happens” to have most of the water rights bought up, and since with that water district comes the right to exercise eminent domain for pipline right of way; the question arises how does the Pickens water venture benefit from the wind venture in the exact same area?

Well it is simple. Pickens doesn’t have to erect one wind turbine generator or do any gas or electric transmission to make a killing. All he has to do is sublet the right-of-way to the water district for their pipeline. They take the expense of installation and he collects for the sub-lease of the use of the underground right-of-way. He then pays the landowners a much lower price for the primary rent and pockets the difference. Then, of course, he sells his water to the water district who sends it to Dallas over his right-of-way. And if the landowner doesn’t want to lease to Pickens? Well, the water district will take the right-of-way by eminent domain!

The (not rich) farmers and landowners who are hoping for some income from the wind generation to help them keep their farms will be surprised to find out that all they have is a discounted lease of their right-of-way which T Boone can leverage into a huge profit by only doing a lot of talk and paying fees to some sharp and sneaky lawyers!

Farmers & Landowners, DON’T SIGN! Or at least talk to the competition before you do.

]]> By: Tom Jorgens http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16868 Tom Jorgens Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:59:08 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/07/27/a-bone-to-pick-with-t-boone-pickens/#comment-16868 The use of natural gas to run electric power plants, excepting purely back-up and emergency generation, is and has been a truly bad idea. It is indeed hard to believe that anyone could be naive enough to expand it. The growing use of natural gas for electrical generation is directly responsible for the superheated heating bills Americans will pay this winter. For some that will mean going without or being cold this winter, for those in the country's hotter climates it will mean sweltering in the heat waves. Millions of people can't pay these outrageous prices, and many more millions will have to cut out or cut back other necessities to pay their bills this foolishness is causing. Wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, clean coal and even new generation nuclear (with reprocessing) make far more sense! Pickens has put forth a great set of ideas, and natural gas is a great clean way to transition cars from the old hydrocarbons to hybrid and electric vehicles. We need to cleverly use all sources, especially conservation, to get where we need to go. The use of natural gas to run electric power plants, excepting purely back-up and emergency generation, is and has been a truly bad idea. It is indeed hard to believe that anyone could be naive enough to expand it.

The growing use of natural gas for electrical generation is directly responsible for the superheated heating bills Americans will pay this winter. For some that will mean going without or being cold this winter, for those in the country’s hotter climates it will mean sweltering in the heat waves. Millions of people can’t pay these outrageous prices, and many more millions will have to cut out or cut back other necessities to pay their bills this foolishness is causing.

Wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, clean coal and even new generation nuclear (with reprocessing) make far more sense!

Pickens has put forth a great set of ideas, and natural gas is a great clean way to transition cars from the old hydrocarbons to hybrid and electric
vehicles. We need to cleverly use all sources, especially conservation, to get where we need to go.

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