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	<title>Comments on: Gustav, climate, drilling, McCain, Palin &#8212; Some enviros self-censor, but should progressives?</title>
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	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18420</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18420</guid>
		<description>Oil spills have always been big news.  But they are a small part of the environmental damage done by oil and gas production outside of global warming.

Oil spills have caused massive damage (the herring fishery in Prince William Sound may never recover and thus recovery may never occur for the populations of wildlife dependent on them such as sea otters and many birds).  Yet, oil spills still represent a very small part of the damage done.

I wish I had your energy and drive.  At some point I&#039;ll piece together the literature and send it to you.  The damage is well documented, but mostly sits as inaccessible gray literature and government reports.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oil spills have always been big news.  But they are a small part of the environmental damage done by oil and gas production outside of global warming.</p>
<p>Oil spills have caused massive damage (the herring fishery in Prince William Sound may never recover and thus recovery may never occur for the populations of wildlife dependent on them such as sea otters and many birds).  Yet, oil spills still represent a very small part of the damage done.</p>
<p>I wish I had your energy and drive.  At some point I&#8217;ll piece together the literature and send it to you.  The damage is well documented, but mostly sits as inaccessible gray literature and government reports.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18417</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 14:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18417</guid>
		<description>Joe:  the emphasis on oil spills by environmental groups and perhaps yourself make it appear that they are the most important source of harm done by oil and gas production.

By far the greatest cause of environmental harm is from other impacts such as subsidence and loss of marsh land and developed coastal lands from depressurization and consolidation of oil and gas deposits, loss of fish and wildlife habitat from pipeline construction (coastal Texas and Louisiana are a spagetti bowl of pipelines - some places are more pipeline ROW than open lands), infrastructure impacts such as navigation channels, refineries, etc.

Unlike oil spills, these are unavoidable, permanent losses to the coastal and inland environments.

The emphasis on oil spills would be analogous to saying the only environmental harm done by mountain top removal strip mining is from increased dust causing more air pollution.  Oil spills are a red herring.

The industry has done very well in keeping this off the radar.

[&lt;em&gt;JR:  I don&#039;t agree with you here.  Oil spills have always been huge news, unlike, say, dust.  Also, unlike coal, we are probably going to use most of our conventional oil and natural gas, as Hansen and others have said.  And doing so would not be fatal to the climate if we curtailed coal as Hansen and I&#039;d like to.&lt;/em&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe:  the emphasis on oil spills by environmental groups and perhaps yourself make it appear that they are the most important source of harm done by oil and gas production.</p>
<p>By far the greatest cause of environmental harm is from other impacts such as subsidence and loss of marsh land and developed coastal lands from depressurization and consolidation of oil and gas deposits, loss of fish and wildlife habitat from pipeline construction (coastal Texas and Louisiana are a spagetti bowl of pipelines &#8211; some places are more pipeline ROW than open lands), infrastructure impacts such as navigation channels, refineries, etc.</p>
<p>Unlike oil spills, these are unavoidable, permanent losses to the coastal and inland environments.</p>
<p>The emphasis on oil spills would be analogous to saying the only environmental harm done by mountain top removal strip mining is from increased dust causing more air pollution.  Oil spills are a red herring.</p>
<p>The industry has done very well in keeping this off the radar.</p>
<p>[<em>JR:  I don't agree with you here.  Oil spills have always been huge news, unlike, say, dust.  Also, unlike coal, we are probably going to use most of our conventional oil and natural gas, as Hansen and others have said.  And doing so would not be fatal to the climate if we curtailed coal as Hansen and I'd like to.</em>]</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18415</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18415</guid>
		<description>Let me guess--Carl Pope or Fred Krupp?  

You&#039;re right on the money here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me guess&#8211;Carl Pope or Fred Krupp?  </p>
<p>You&#8217;re right on the money here.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnnyRook</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18409</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnnyRook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 07:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18409</guid>
		<description>Absolutely great post, Joe. I think that rank-and-file environmentalists have been sold out by their leaders, who have become far too cozy with the existing power structure. Look how many environmental organizations were willing to settle for Lieberman-Warner despite all of its inadequacies.

Most recently there has been the endorsement of T. Boone Pickens by a number of people who ought to know better, among them the Sierra Club&#039;s Carl Pope and the Center for American Progress&#039;s own John Podesta. (I will admit that, of the two, Pope is guilty of the more egregious praise.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-pope/t-boone-and-me_b_110712.html

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/pressroom/2008/07/podesta_statement_on_pickens_plan.html

My analogy for these folks is that of the spinster who drains her bank account to help the spurious fiance that she has met on the Internet. She&#039;s been neglected for so long that she&#039;s completely cowed and will do anything to please that special someone who finally pays attention to her.

Quite frankly, it&#039;s embarrassing to watch.

&lt;em&gt;Blogging for the future at &lt;a href=&quot;climaticidechronicles.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Climaticide Chronicles.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely great post, Joe. I think that rank-and-file environmentalists have been sold out by their leaders, who have become far too cozy with the existing power structure. Look how many environmental organizations were willing to settle for Lieberman-Warner despite all of its inadequacies.</p>
<p>Most recently there has been the endorsement of T. Boone Pickens by a number of people who ought to know better, among them the Sierra Club&#8217;s Carl Pope and the Center for American Progress&#8217;s own John Podesta. (I will admit that, of the two, Pope is guilty of the more egregious praise.)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-pope/t-boone-and-me_b_110712.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>carl-pope/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>t-boone-and-me_b_110712.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.americanprogressaction.org/pressroom/2008/07/podesta_statement_on_pickens_plan.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.americanprogressaction.org/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>pressroom/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>2008/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>07/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>podesta_statement_on_pickens_plan.html</a></p>
<p>My analogy for these folks is that of the spinster who drains her bank account to help the spurious fiance that she has met on the Internet. She&#8217;s been neglected for so long that she&#8217;s completely cowed and will do anything to please that special someone who finally pays attention to her.</p>
<p>Quite frankly, it&#8217;s embarrassing to watch.</p>
<p><em>Blogging for the future at <a href="climaticidechronicles.org/" rel="nofollow">Climaticide Chronicles.</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: paulm</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18406</link>
		<dc:creator>paulm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 04:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18406</guid>
		<description>Well said. 

I think  Environmentalist in North America have  effectively been drowned out by  big time commerce, their backers and big oil.  

Al Gore covers this  in his  last book...
&lt;b&gt;The Assault on Reason&lt;/b&gt; 

 NYT  says about the book...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/books/22kaku.html

I think it might  become a classic in its category.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said. </p>
<p>I think  Environmentalist in North America have  effectively been drowned out by  big time commerce, their backers and big oil.  </p>
<p>Al Gore covers this  in his  last book&#8230;<br />
<b>The Assault on Reason</b> </p>
<p> NYT  says about the book&#8230;<br />
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/books/22kaku.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/books/22kaku.html</a></p>
<p>I think it might  become a classic in its category.</p>
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		<title>By: rpauli</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18405</link>
		<dc:creator>rpauli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 04:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18405</guid>
		<description>Silence is complicity.

Time we stopped and countered the organized denialist, obstructionist campaigns.

Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Silence is complicity.</p>
<p>Time we stopped and countered the organized denialist, obstructionist campaigns.</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: EricG</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18404</link>
		<dc:creator>EricG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 04:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18404</guid>
		<description>I love ya Joe, but berating Washington for  &quot;...refus(ing) to build the levees strong enough to protect the citizens of New Orleans against a Category 5 hurricane making landfall...&quot; doesn&#039;t make any sense.  As Kathy points out above, there are many better ways to spend that money.  For better or worse, the battle to save New Orleans is over.

I suggest John McPhee&#039;s excellent book &quot;Control of Nature&quot; for a reality check on what&#039;s going on at the south end of the Mississippi River.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love ya Joe, but berating Washington for  &#8220;&#8230;refus(ing) to build the levees strong enough to protect the citizens of New Orleans against a Category 5 hurricane making landfall&#8230;&#8221; doesn&#8217;t make any sense.  As Kathy points out above, there are many better ways to spend that money.  For better or worse, the battle to save New Orleans is over.</p>
<p>I suggest John McPhee&#8217;s excellent book &#8220;Control of Nature&#8221; for a reality check on what&#8217;s going on at the south end of the Mississippi River.</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18401</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 03:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18401</guid>
		<description>Wow. A perfect example of preemptive capitulation.  

While it may be true that no single storm can be attributed to global warming, it is equally true each individual storm, is very likely to be stronger than it otherwise would be, and that each one is an example what we can expect to see much more of if we don&#039;t cut GHG emissions now.

It&#039;s well past time to pander to deniers and self-interested delayers, or to accept their framing of issues.  

Thanks Joe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. A perfect example of preemptive capitulation.  </p>
<p>While it may be true that no single storm can be attributed to global warming, it is equally true each individual storm, is very likely to be stronger than it otherwise would be, and that each one is an example what we can expect to see much more of if we don&#8217;t cut GHG emissions now.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s well past time to pander to deniers and self-interested delayers, or to accept their framing of issues.  </p>
<p>Thanks Joe.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Basralian</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18400</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Basralian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 03:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18400</guid>
		<description>Agreed. If &quot;environmentalists&quot; don&#039;t play hardball then they deserve to be pasted by the reactionaries and laughed at by &quot;ordinary Americans.&quot;  Deeper-warming waters in the Gulf that supercharge hurricanes are just one result of Global Warming. Everyone on that coast, at least, should be love non-carbon energy solutions. But most folks think they can cash their paycheck from their oil employer and move out of harm&#039;s way if need be. A bird in hand.  We need to give them time capsules to see what life will be like in a few decades, no matter where they compete to live.  Good parents think about this. Good grandparents, even more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed. If &#8220;environmentalists&#8221; don&#8217;t play hardball then they deserve to be pasted by the reactionaries and laughed at by &#8220;ordinary Americans.&#8221;  Deeper-warming waters in the Gulf that supercharge hurricanes are just one result of Global Warming. Everyone on that coast, at least, should be love non-carbon energy solutions. But most folks think they can cash their paycheck from their oil employer and move out of harm&#8217;s way if need be. A bird in hand.  We need to give them time capsules to see what life will be like in a few decades, no matter where they compete to live.  Good parents think about this. Good grandparents, even more.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex J</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18399</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 02:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/01/gustav-climate-drilling-mccain-palin-some-enviros-self-censor-but-should-progressives/#comment-18399</guid>
		<description>One thing &quot;adaptationalists&quot; don&#039;t seem to get is that the cryosphere and the ocean-atmosphere system are somewhat dynamic. Projected average change doesn&#039;t mean everything will occur in a steady, linear manner. So in one period of years, sea level may be relatively stable, while in another it may rise quickly as a consequence of rapid ice disintegration. Something similar with ocean-atmosphere heat exchange, and the currents that can feed tropical storms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing &#8220;adaptationalists&#8221; don&#8217;t seem to get is that the cryosphere and the ocean-atmosphere system are somewhat dynamic. Projected average change doesn&#8217;t mean everything will occur in a steady, linear manner. So in one period of years, sea level may be relatively stable, while in another it may rise quickly as a consequence of rapid ice disintegration. Something similar with ocean-atmosphere heat exchange, and the currents that can feed tropical storms.</p>
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