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	<title>Comments on: Is the Biden-Obama position on clean &#8216;clean coal&#8217; a mistake?</title>
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	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: Dorothy Cutting</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20302</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorothy Cutting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20302</guid>
		<description>Ideally, no new coal-fired plants should be built before the technology for CO2 removal at the source is developed. The smart money should, must, be on concentrated solar and deep geothermal for energy sources instead of coal. And it is imperative that we begin building CO2 scrubbers as quickly as possible and begin the process of removing the excess of CO2 from our global atmosphere. We cannot survive unless we take these steps. It&#039;s that simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ideally, no new coal-fired plants should be built before the technology for CO2 removal at the source is developed. The smart money should, must, be on concentrated solar and deep geothermal for energy sources instead of coal. And it is imperative that we begin building CO2 scrubbers as quickly as possible and begin the process of removing the excess of CO2 from our global atmosphere. We cannot survive unless we take these steps. It&#8217;s that simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyril R.</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20301</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyril R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20301</guid>
		<description>Yes, mineral sequestration works well, for a low cost (a cent or two per kWh).

The chemical pollutants can be radically reduced by active filters and other advanced pollution abatement controls. 

This would make coal clean enough by reasonable standards. Of course there will be unreasonable people objecting. Like unscientific environmentalists. The only plausible negative argument would be the (local) impact of mining the coal. Underground gassification has advantages but also carries it&#039;s own surface stability risks.

I don&#039;t think such &#039;clean enough&#039; coal could compete with electric markets (like wind), but liquid fuels might be useful for many purposes.

Underground methanization of coal deposits by bacteria is also being researched. Methane is very useful, also as a chemical feedstock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, mineral sequestration works well, for a low cost (a cent or two per kWh).</p>
<p>The chemical pollutants can be radically reduced by active filters and other advanced pollution abatement controls. </p>
<p>This would make coal clean enough by reasonable standards. Of course there will be unreasonable people objecting. Like unscientific environmentalists. The only plausible negative argument would be the (local) impact of mining the coal. Underground gassification has advantages but also carries it&#8217;s own surface stability risks.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think such &#8216;clean enough&#8217; coal could compete with electric markets (like wind), but liquid fuels might be useful for many purposes.</p>
<p>Underground methanization of coal deposits by bacteria is also being researched. Methane is very useful, also as a chemical feedstock.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Fabos</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20217</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Fabos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20217</guid>
		<description>Bob, I think Hydro storage is great if you have suitable locations. They don&#039;t exist everywhere. They don&#039;t exist most places and could have to compete with agriculture and other uses for the water. CAES deserves some scaled up demo plants. Molten salt needs some scaled up demo plants. A bit of foresight and planning is required on storage or else it becomes a renewable energy catch-22; no need to build them until coal plants shut down, can&#039;t shut coal plants down until the storage is in place.

Or there is a much improved grid. Or both. 

A major R&amp;D challenge ought to be development of transmission that can cross between continents - the transmission side of the old Space Power Satellite proposals used to send Australian solar power to Europe, African to China, Middle Eastern (some irony here) to the USA? And of course any excess US solar to wherever the sun&#039;s not shining.  HVDC is being used to link Europe and Africa but that&#039;s not in the same league as crossing Atlantic or the Pacific. Can it be improved that much? Is it time to look again at superconductors - although refrigerating undersea cables to supercold temperatures and reliably keeping them cold does look daunting.

A Global grid may not bring energy independence but it could provide clean energy security. Meanwhile back in the present, I&#039;d like to see more action worldwide on the development of utility scale storage so it&#039;s lack isn&#039;t an ongoing excuse to keep the coal fires burning and fail the Climate challenge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, I think Hydro storage is great if you have suitable locations. They don&#8217;t exist everywhere. They don&#8217;t exist most places and could have to compete with agriculture and other uses for the water. CAES deserves some scaled up demo plants. Molten salt needs some scaled up demo plants. A bit of foresight and planning is required on storage or else it becomes a renewable energy catch-22; no need to build them until coal plants shut down, can&#8217;t shut coal plants down until the storage is in place.</p>
<p>Or there is a much improved grid. Or both. </p>
<p>A major R&amp;D challenge ought to be development of transmission that can cross between continents &#8211; the transmission side of the old Space Power Satellite proposals used to send Australian solar power to Europe, African to China, Middle Eastern (some irony here) to the USA? And of course any excess US solar to wherever the sun&#8217;s not shining.  HVDC is being used to link Europe and Africa but that&#8217;s not in the same league as crossing Atlantic or the Pacific. Can it be improved that much? Is it time to look again at superconductors &#8211; although refrigerating undersea cables to supercold temperatures and reliably keeping them cold does look daunting.</p>
<p>A Global grid may not bring energy independence but it could provide clean energy security. Meanwhile back in the present, I&#8217;d like to see more action worldwide on the development of utility scale storage so it&#8217;s lack isn&#8217;t an ongoing excuse to keep the coal fires burning and fail the Climate challenge.</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20212</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20212</guid>
		<description>john --- There are many non-point sources of excess carbon, principally for transportation but not limited to that.  There are also point sources for which carbon capture seems too difficult, principally cement production.  So there is a need for some form of carbon removal; the olivine reaction is safe, secure and appears that it will be inexpensive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>john &#8212; There are many non-point sources of excess carbon, principally for transportation but not limited to that.  There are also point sources for which carbon capture seems too difficult, principally cement production.  So there is a need for some form of carbon removal; the olivine reaction is safe, secure and appears that it will be inexpensive.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Wallace</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20185</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20185</guid>
		<description>How about pump-up hydro for storage.  Very efficient.  All you need is some water and a change in elevation.   We&#039;ve got close to 2,000 yet-to-be converted dams/turbines in the US right now.  (IIRC)  Power lines already running to them.

And compressed air (CAES).  No more than $0.08 per kWh, possibly half that.  One site under construction as we speak.  


Bet we get to affordable renewable w/storage before we get to affordable coal w/sequestering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about pump-up hydro for storage.  Very efficient.  All you need is some water and a change in elevation.   We&#8217;ve got close to 2,000 yet-to-be converted dams/turbines in the US right now.  (IIRC)  Power lines already running to them.</p>
<p>And compressed air (CAES).  No more than $0.08 per kWh, possibly half that.  One site under construction as we speak.  </p>
<p>Bet we get to affordable renewable w/storage before we get to affordable coal w/sequestering.</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20176</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 17:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20176</guid>
		<description>David:

The means of sequestration you suggest are worth pursuing ... although I believe we need a little more evidence that they are permanent, and as you note, they double the cost of coal derived power.  This makes most forms of renewables less costly ... 

Concentrating solar and hot-dry rock geothermal are functionally base-load,  their potential is huge, and they are less expensive than coal with CCS.  With an intelligent grid, intermittent and on-site renewables such as wind and roof-top solar become viable replacements for coal.  Add in off-shore wind, tidal and ocean thermal, all of which can  ( or soon may) beat coal with CSS-- mix in a 40 to 50% increase in efficiency across the economy, and I don&#039;t see coal with CSS being a real issue ...

And of course, if we do develop a cost-effective means of storing energy,  ( the one place where we could actually use a breakthrough)  it&#039;s game game over for coal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David:</p>
<p>The means of sequestration you suggest are worth pursuing &#8230; although I believe we need a little more evidence that they are permanent, and as you note, they double the cost of coal derived power.  This makes most forms of renewables less costly &#8230; </p>
<p>Concentrating solar and hot-dry rock geothermal are functionally base-load,  their potential is huge, and they are less expensive than coal with CCS.  With an intelligent grid, intermittent and on-site renewables such as wind and roof-top solar become viable replacements for coal.  Add in off-shore wind, tidal and ocean thermal, all of which can  ( or soon may) beat coal with CSS&#8211; mix in a 40 to 50% increase in efficiency across the economy, and I don&#8217;t see coal with CSS being a real issue &#8230;</p>
<p>And of course, if we do develop a cost-effective means of storing energy,  ( the one place where we could actually use a breakthrough)  it&#8217;s game game over for coal.</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20165</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 00:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20165</guid>
		<description>Sinking the carbon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_sink

mentions olivine as a possiblity.

The poster session pdf file I linked previously claims that the cost of the plan therein might eventually be as low as $14 per tonne of CO2 removed from the air; $52 per tonne of carbon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sinking the carbon:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_sink" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_sink</a></p>
<p>mentions olivine as a possiblity.</p>
<p>The poster session pdf file I linked previously claims that the cost of the plan therein might eventually be as low as $14 per tonne of CO2 removed from the air; $52 per tonne of carbon.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Fabos</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20163</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Fabos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 23:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20163</guid>
		<description>Whilst I hesitate to say clean coal is in need of a major &lt;i&gt;breakthrough&lt;/i&gt;, a lot more development is needed. A &lt;i&gt;lot more&lt;/i&gt; if we want to bet the world&#039;s future climate on it becoming ubiquitous in any kind of climate relevant time scale. Building more coal plants with the assumption they can be retrofitted with CCS (that&#039;s barely shown itself feasible) doesn&#039;t seem wise to me - I&#039;d much prefer to see the development of coal plants that can be switched on and off quickly enough to be squeezed into the role of backup for renewables. That would make them a worthwhile transitional technology until grid and storage are developed to the point where it&#039;s just good old cost cutting common sense to close coal down completely. 

I&#039;m sure I&#039;ll be told that switchable coal is too expensive, too technically challenging or just plain impossible. And that grid and storage that can provide reliable renewables-only energy is too expensive, too technically challenging of just plain impossible. In both cases I suspect it&#039;s more a case of  expensive rather than impossible - for storage, thermal style, the technology required is pretty basic, but, since there&#039;s been an abundance of coal and nuke plants running 24/7 there&#039;s never been a need to have utility scale storage at all. Because it doesn&#039;t exist it&#039;s easy to assume it must be unfeasible. Technically challenging for sure, to scale it up to get days or weeks of energy for a major city or industrial region. Lot&#039;s of Nimbyers to persuade or ride rough shod over. But not by any stretch is it impossible.

Coal prices may have shot up but coal is an industry more than capable of carrying on when prices are low, so it&#039;s not cost parity with &lt;i&gt;high demand Carbon tax boosted coal&lt;/i&gt; that is ultimately required, but clean energy that&#039;s cheaper and better than coal at any price. 
International and nation specific incentives, disincentives, tax breaks and penalties and R&amp;D, both private and public all belong in the mix. (In that last case I don&#039;t think a real breakthrough or two would go astray even if they aren&#039;t strictly essential or are longshots. I&#039;d hate to see them missed for the sake of some R&amp;D spending cuts. R&amp;D, especially R, does tend to pay off and, even if specific aims aren&#039;t realised, the increase of knowledge feeds and flows through to more incremental developments elsewhere. 

So I don&#039;t think any strategy is out of order to get a handle on climate change. Mmm, second thoughts on that last - wishing for a global recession and/or collapse of civilisation to do it is something I draw the line at; I think this challenge will take &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; civilisation than humanity has ever demonstrated &lt;i&gt;ever&lt;/i&gt;. The current financial turmoil, even if it results in a temporary apparent reduction in GHG emissions (and probably result in CC Skeptics insisting the show&#039;s all over, time to go home and stoke up the coal fire) is unlikely to add any impetus to fundamental change in how we make and use energy and will probably sap some of the momentum to do so. From a climate change matters point of view (my own, admittedly not that deeply knowledgeable, POV) it looks be a clear negative, making sticking with what we have look even better and make the funding of major new energy infrastructure a lot harder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whilst I hesitate to say clean coal is in need of a major <i>breakthrough</i>, a lot more development is needed. A <i>lot more</i> if we want to bet the world&#8217;s future climate on it becoming ubiquitous in any kind of climate relevant time scale. Building more coal plants with the assumption they can be retrofitted with CCS (that&#8217;s barely shown itself feasible) doesn&#8217;t seem wise to me &#8211; I&#8217;d much prefer to see the development of coal plants that can be switched on and off quickly enough to be squeezed into the role of backup for renewables. That would make them a worthwhile transitional technology until grid and storage are developed to the point where it&#8217;s just good old cost cutting common sense to close coal down completely. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;ll be told that switchable coal is too expensive, too technically challenging or just plain impossible. And that grid and storage that can provide reliable renewables-only energy is too expensive, too technically challenging of just plain impossible. In both cases I suspect it&#8217;s more a case of  expensive rather than impossible &#8211; for storage, thermal style, the technology required is pretty basic, but, since there&#8217;s been an abundance of coal and nuke plants running 24/7 there&#8217;s never been a need to have utility scale storage at all. Because it doesn&#8217;t exist it&#8217;s easy to assume it must be unfeasible. Technically challenging for sure, to scale it up to get days or weeks of energy for a major city or industrial region. Lot&#8217;s of Nimbyers to persuade or ride rough shod over. But not by any stretch is it impossible.</p>
<p>Coal prices may have shot up but coal is an industry more than capable of carrying on when prices are low, so it&#8217;s not cost parity with <i>high demand Carbon tax boosted coal</i> that is ultimately required, but clean energy that&#8217;s cheaper and better than coal at any price.<br />
International and nation specific incentives, disincentives, tax breaks and penalties and R&amp;D, both private and public all belong in the mix. (In that last case I don&#8217;t think a real breakthrough or two would go astray even if they aren&#8217;t strictly essential or are longshots. I&#8217;d hate to see them missed for the sake of some R&amp;D spending cuts. R&amp;D, especially R, does tend to pay off and, even if specific aims aren&#8217;t realised, the increase of knowledge feeds and flows through to more incremental developments elsewhere. </p>
<p>So I don&#8217;t think any strategy is out of order to get a handle on climate change. Mmm, second thoughts on that last &#8211; wishing for a global recession and/or collapse of civilisation to do it is something I draw the line at; I think this challenge will take <i>more</i> civilisation than humanity has ever demonstrated <i>ever</i>. The current financial turmoil, even if it results in a temporary apparent reduction in GHG emissions (and probably result in CC Skeptics insisting the show&#8217;s all over, time to go home and stoke up the coal fire) is unlikely to add any impetus to fundamental change in how we make and use energy and will probably sap some of the momentum to do so. From a climate change matters point of view (my own, admittedly not that deeply knowledgeable, POV) it looks be a clear negative, making sticking with what we have look even better and make the funding of major new energy infrastructure a lot harder.</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20161</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 23:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20161</guid>
		<description>Bob Wallace --- 200,000 ewes.

That&#039;s a lotta rams!  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob Wallace &#8212; 200,000 ewes.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a lotta rams!  <img src='http://climateprogress.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Bob Wallace</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20160</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 22:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/03/is-the-biden-obama-position-on-clean-clean-coal-a-mistake/#comment-20160</guid>
		<description>Yep.

Ain&#039;t is how better we remember the old days to be than they really were?

And Nope.

I didn&#039;t read your correction.

Having had a bit of experience with sheep on a farm.  The goal is just barely enough rams for the ewes.  Fewer rams the better....

Looks like we&#039;re all experiencing some technical difficulties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep.</p>
<p>Ain&#8217;t is how better we remember the old days to be than they really were?</p>
<p>And Nope.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t read your correction.</p>
<p>Having had a bit of experience with sheep on a farm.  The goal is just barely enough rams for the ewes.  Fewer rams the better&#8230;.</p>
<p>Looks like we&#8217;re all experiencing some technical difficulties.</p>
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