Comments on: Why scientists aren’t more persuasive, Part 2: Why deniers out-debate “smart talkers” http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:48:27 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Michael Hoexter http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20619 Michael Hoexter Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:56:14 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20619 The study of rhetoric originates in oratory but rhetoric is the study of how to make arguments or other forms of persuasive communication in any medium. You could even ascribe a rhetoric to TV commercials or other primarily visual forms of communication. It is no surprise that scientists are usually not good rhetoricians as in their professional communications, their form of argumentation is usually formally prescribed by their discipline. It usually involves statistical tests on numerical data and a highly regimented format for refereed papers. The study of rhetoric originates in oratory but rhetoric is the study of how to make arguments or other forms of persuasive communication in any medium. You could even ascribe a rhetoric to TV commercials or other primarily visual forms of communication.

It is no surprise that scientists are usually not good rhetoricians as in their professional communications, their form of argumentation is usually formally prescribed by their discipline. It usually involves statistical tests on numerical data and a highly regimented format for refereed papers.

]]> By: Peter Black http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20604 Peter Black Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:21:10 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20604 Rhetoric can't be written? That's news to me. Look, your point in this post is well taken: scientists need to do a better job of explaining their work and findings in terms that joe sixpack can understand. This notion can clearly be extended to written rhetoric on blogs (and elsewhere on the web) so it should include you, me, and everyone else who cares about this topic. There's no need to mount a web defense based upon semantics: all that amounts to is a retreat into the "smart talk" you've already written about. Rhetoric can’t be written? That’s news to me. Look, your point in this post is well taken: scientists need to do a better job of explaining their work and findings in terms that joe sixpack can understand. This notion can clearly be extended to written rhetoric on blogs (and elsewhere on the web) so it should include you, me, and everyone else who cares about this topic. There’s no need to mount a web defense based upon semantics: all that amounts to is a retreat into the “smart talk” you’ve already written about.

]]> By: Ronald http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20587 Ronald Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:22:33 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20587 But what is really at lack here to influence more people that increased greenhouse gases causes crisis global warming? Is it just the Rhetoric or the lack of commitment of doing something by those that know better? Peggy Noonan said something about Sarah Palen that 'She is good at the show business side of politics,' (paraphrased) (But then Noonan would say that Palen is not ready to be Vice President.) Oratory can be to words and speech what Magicians are to things. My quick dictionary says that Magicians are 'ones who preforms illusions and sleigh of hand.' So Orators can do that with words. What scientists need to be better at show business. Maybe. But I have also heard something like '80 percent of success in life is showing up.' Have scientists done enough to get the ideas out there? We live in an age of Science, but also in an age of advertising, show business and oratory on talk radio and TV. Do Scientists have to get better at show business? I don't think so. Just as economists we don't have to get better at show business to push there ideas, although it would help, they just have to do the research and ideas. Economists just have to have surrogate Champions to push the ideas, ie, Obama who is great at public speaking can do the explaining and the economist can be left to doing the economist research and thinking. Much better to have those that are good at show business and advertising to do the show business and advertising and let the Scientists do the Science. There is a problem with some people accepting Al Gore as a spokesperson for global warming and that's he has political opponents in the United States. Maybe more should be done with getting conservatives from Britain and Europe to do the explaining. My view is that the effort of convincing people that global warming will be a problem has been insufficient however good the Scientists are at Oratory and Rhetoric. But what is really at lack here to influence more people that increased greenhouse gases causes crisis global warming?

Is it just the Rhetoric or the lack of commitment of doing something by those that know better?

Peggy Noonan said something about Sarah Palen that ‘She is good at the show business side of politics,’ (paraphrased) (But then Noonan would say that Palen is not ready to be Vice President.)

Oratory can be to words and speech what Magicians are to things. My quick dictionary says that Magicians are ‘ones who preforms illusions and sleigh of hand.’ So Orators can do that with words.

What scientists need to be better at show business. Maybe. But I have also heard something like ‘80 percent of success in life is showing up.’ Have scientists done enough to get the ideas out there?

We live in an age of Science, but also in an age of advertising, show business and oratory on talk radio and TV. Do Scientists have to get better at show business? I don’t think so. Just as economists we don’t have to get better at show business to push there ideas, although it would help, they just have to do the research and ideas. Economists just have to have surrogate Champions to push the ideas, ie, Obama who is great at public speaking can do the explaining and the economist can be left to doing the economist research and thinking.

Much better to have those that are good at show business and advertising to do the show business and advertising and let the Scientists do the Science.

There is a problem with some people accepting Al Gore as a spokesperson for global warming and that’s he has political opponents in the United States. Maybe more should be done with getting conservatives from Britain and Europe to do the explaining.

My view is that the effort of convincing people that global warming will be a problem has been insufficient however good the Scientists are at Oratory and Rhetoric.

]]> By: Joe http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20561 Joe Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:53:16 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20561 Yes, Peter, David is right: Rhetoric is primarily about oratory -- not writing. Yes, Peter, David is right: Rhetoric is primarily about oratory — not writing.

]]> By: David B. Benson http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20557 David B. Benson Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:53:14 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20557 Main Entry: rhet·o·ric Pronunciation: \ˈre-tə-rik\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English rethorik, from Anglo-French rethorique, from Latin rhetorica, from Greek rhētorikē, literally, art of oratory, from feminine of rhētorikos of an orator, from rhētōr orator, rhetorician, from eirein to say, speak. Date: 14th century from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetoric Main Entry: rhet·o·ric
Pronunciation: \ˈre-tə-rik\
Function: noun
Etymology:
Middle English rethorik, from Anglo-French rethorique, from Latin rhetorica, from Greek rhētorikē, literally, art of oratory, from feminine of rhētorikos of an orator, from rhētōr orator, rhetorician, from eirein to say, speak.
Date: 14th century

from

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetoric

]]> By: Peter Black http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20552 Peter Black Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:59:30 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20552 Sure this is a nice blog post, but Joe, you might be the most verbose blogger out there on climate. Perhaps it's time for an emphasis on brevity, clarity, and of course, effective rhetoric? Sure this is a nice blog post, but Joe, you might be the most verbose blogger out there on climate. Perhaps it’s time for an emphasis on brevity, clarity, and of course, effective rhetoric?

]]> By: Rick http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20546 Rick Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:52:15 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20546 "human capacity for denial is unlimited". True and I'm sure my impulse for denial creates problems for me. Past and present denial is something I have to almost work at, but future denial comes really easy. The future is the thing, many are sure about it but everybody is always wrong about it. “human capacity for denial is unlimited”. True and I’m sure my impulse for denial creates problems for me. Past and present denial is something I have to almost work at, but future denial comes really easy. The future is the thing, many are sure about it but everybody is always wrong about it.

]]> By: rpauli http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20538 rpauli Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:25:32 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20538 Excellent piece. The laws of physics are immune to rhetoric. And the human capacity for denial seems unlimited. Excellent piece.

The laws of physics are immune to rhetoric. And the human capacity for denial seems unlimited.

]]> By: Eoin http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20532 Eoin Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:47:03 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20532 Many colleges still offer courses in rhetoric, which raises the question: Wouldn't you think that professional rhetoriticians, of all people, would have come up with a better name for what they do? Many colleges still offer courses in rhetoric, which raises the question: Wouldn’t you think that professional rhetoriticians, of all people, would have come up with a better name for what they do?

]]> By: Dr. K http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20531 Dr. K Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:39:00 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/13/why-scientists-aren%e2%80%99t-more-persuasive-part-2-why-deniers-out-debate-smart-talkers/#comment-20531 Thanks, Joe, for an excellent job of making this case. I've been blogging about this for months. It's not just rhetoric, either. There are so many ways to make the appeal to the person too busy, too tired or too overwhelmed with information to think about it anymore. It is fundamental for any of us who wish to change the world for the better to master the art of persuasion. best wishes, Rick Thanks, Joe, for an excellent job of making this case. I’ve been blogging about this for months. It’s not just rhetoric, either. There are so many ways to make the appeal to the person too busy, too tired or too overwhelmed with information to think about it anymore. It is fundamental for any of us who wish to change the world for the better to master the art of persuasion.

best wishes,
Rick

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