thanks

and i do agree with the Crutzen comment, and think the way is going to be painful and inevitable, and we won’t all survive it. I hope that enough of the good ideas will be launched to enable humanity to evolve into a being that lives harmoniously with other life forms on this planet.

If true, the game is lost. Doing something about GW is a hard sell even if doing so is a net benefit economically…there is abundant evidence for this fact.

But how is, e.g., following California’s example in electricity efficiency, where a typical family saves $1500/year because of their policies, a “very expensive antibiotic.” The fact is that there are many ways to decrease GHG emissions that we ought to be doing anyway…because they save money. The IPCC estimates that we can achieve about 2./3 of the required reductions in emissions with no net cost. We need to begin these things now and move into the efforts that have a net cost as the cost comes down. The idea that doing something is a huge expense is an insideous fiction that needs constant rebutting. All of this is even more relevant during a downturn when we are not flush and when wasting money due to inefficiencies and poor choices makes even less sense.

We have to reduce our energy consumption by reducing our consumption. That is the only way forward for the immediate future.

We are living a far too selfish and materialistic life in the west anyway.

I don’t have time to go back and pull them up, but some reports have reported that moving to a greenhouse gas emission reduced economy would cost between 0.6 to 2.0 percent of our Gross Domestic Product. With a 14 trillion (14 000 billion) dollar a year economy, that could mean spending between 84 to 280 billion dollars a year on non-carbon and extremely low carbon energy. That’s very doable.

I’m with Al Gore and that we should overspend on non-carbon and extremely low carbon energy sources. Overspend would mean spend more than just the replacement of carbon fueled energy sources as plants age and new sources, but actually replace carbon fueled energy sources with non-carbon and low carbon energy sources.

Decrease the need for energy by using more insulation and better designs on houses and other buildings, putting in CTL, LED and passive solar lighting. Fill the electrical grid with wind, solar and all the other low carbon fueled sources and have batteries and battery vehicles built to get charged from that electrical grid. Wind and solar are intermitant, but they should be the majority sources of the grid and carbon fuels should be used intermitantly to keep the grid running.

Recessions and major recessions have nothing to do with our long term energy use. We have to substitute carbon fueled energy for non carbon fueled energy and have everybody else do it also.

The reality is its not going to fly. We are probably well past the thresholds and our only chance is an immediate precipitous decline in CO2 emission and an intensive effort to draw down the current level.

This is not going to happen with the current world economy and attitude. There is no way we can ween ourselves off fossil fuels with out pain. As others have said we are addicted to it.

I know a depression is painful, but to me seems the only way forward now. The last depression was only 80yrs ago and look were we are now. Economic gain is not the only thing that drives human effort!

The catastrophe that is Climate Change will be multiple centuries – give me a depression any day.

Ourselves is the government of the United States. How we, the people manage ourselves will be tested on election day.

Assuming we are not a brain dead nation, Senator Obama will havae the opportunity to do what FDR did but in a much broader sense; yes to infrastructure repair and yes to constructing expanded, smarter grid using the kind of financial instruments the Bushies showered on the big investment banks, etc.

I am for (partially) nationalizing the grid and the taxpayers collecting rent from the power shippers.

Lots more ideas about ‘we, the people’ owning some of the new energy investments Wall Street seem averse to making.

TVA is not a family friend to some enviros but it is a good place to focus public funds to get the ball rolling.

John McCormick

The issue is not whether recessions are bad or green jobs are good. Both are true. Now what do we do?

Best,

D

You are looking at statistics and not the entire picture.

A downturn in the US and world economy leading to prolonged recession…possible depression …as more financial sector timebombs detonate (things like derivaties meltdown, commercial sector loans defaulting, collapse of some major companies) increasing federal deficit spurring hyperinflation and higher interest rates are lethal injections for the global climat change fix.

Massive (trillion dollars) investment in renewables, energy efficiencies in buldings and cars, RD&D here and throughout the industrialized world including China, India and Brazil will be less available and that means the pipelined warming will still occur and time will be squandered at a time when the world must capitalize its energy retooling.

Recession or depression offer misery and lost opportunities to save our children’s future and mean nothing to the today concern about increased rates of CO2 measured by Mauna Loa.

Those stats are the body temperature. We need very expensive antibiotics the economic downturn will put out of reach.

John McCormick

Western levels of consumption cannot be supported by any other fuel than fossil fuels, especially oil (this should be apparent to you Joe). No other replacement will facilitate the flexibility and leverage we get from this compact energy source.

All our progress in to the 20th and 21st century has been propelled by oil. When oil starts to dwindle and slid down that slippery slop after peak (ie now), the world population will have to come down – it just can not be supported with any technology we have now and that we will develop in the next 15-20yrs.

Also the standard of living will fall – we will be much less mobile; our choice of food will be curtailed due to production and transportation cost; iphone gadgets will be too expensive for the average person; there will be expensive security issues to tend to. etc. etc.

The onset of the depression is, you could say, a God send. (Maybe it is actually triggered by the climate change and peak oil, as such is a feedback, a tipping point!) Looking back on what happened in the last depression we see that the 2nd World War (which was probably caused by the depression) was the prime stimulus that lifted the economy out of the dark depths. This is the way forward then – the depression, which reduces our emission; then the ‘War’ against Climate Change. The War which will be world wide, pulling us out at the other end, based on green technology and sustainable solutions.

This has got to be the way forward, considering the reality of the situation to day. The Green party in Canada lost the only seat it had and the conservative government, the one with the worst Climate Change and environmental policy, was vote back in again with a slight increase in its minority standing.

So we need to embrace the down turn and use it to sling-shot the world forward in a environmental and sustainable Nirvana.