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	<title>Comments on: Question from WSJ blog: Are Bogus Carbon Offsets Really That Bad?</title>
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	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: brucejohnson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-115568</link>
		<dc:creator>brucejohnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-115568</guid>
		<description>Hey there...I found the forum from a suggestion by dreamwalker over on another blog. I had asked him if he knew of some tuts I could look at for Blender and he 
pointed me this way.I&#039;ve been lookin around and some of the thread are old? So then I thought I would avoid the guest play and becoming a member instead.
I wouldn&#039;t want to embarrass myself by asking silly questions or posting something stupid but I will contribute as much as I can.
You folks are awesome..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey there&#8230;I found the forum from a suggestion by dreamwalker over on another blog. I had asked him if he knew of some tuts I could look at for Blender and he<br />
pointed me this way.I&#8217;ve been lookin around and some of the thread are old? So then I thought I would avoid the guest play and becoming a member instead.<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t want to embarrass myself by asking silly questions or posting something stupid but I will contribute as much as I can.<br />
You folks are awesome..</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Anderson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-69412</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 06:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-69412</guid>
		<description>You claim that the conclusion is stark: &quot;… any offset market of sufficient scale to provide substantial cost-control for a cap-and-trade program will involve substantial issuance of credits that do not represent real emissions reductions.&quot; 

Yet you fail to mention that weakness also underlies your strategy: &quot;deploy existing and near-term low-carbon technologies as fast as is humanly possible.&quot;

The conclusions of studies would clearly show that by insistency on emissions reducing technologies (let&#039;s just call them ripoff technologies for the spite of it) any deployment of sufficient scale will involve substantial deployment of technologies that do not represent real emissions reductions. Isn&#039;t it STARK????

At least these so-called ripoffsets put into practical numerical terms the carbon savings that are achieved through certain practices. It&#039;s clear that the claims can be evaluated and false reporting practices can be mitigated. It&#039;s clear to the American taxpayers that spending billions of taxpayer dollars on new unproven technologies at high rates is not going to happen. Furthermore, it is not an easy feat to measure improvements on a global scale of the effect of technologies that are deployed in manageable sized projects.

And the worst thing is, if you add a large number to a small number, the result is larger than the large number. So your solution ends up with more of a problem, not less. On the other hand, the goal of offsets, though it may be more difficult to accomplish, is to make less of a problem. Instead of laughing at google for not being as carbon neutral as they claim, we could instead start to urge companies like google to become carbon negative. Only through negativity can gains be made on a global scale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You claim that the conclusion is stark: &#8220;… any offset market of sufficient scale to provide substantial cost-control for a cap-and-trade program will involve substantial issuance of credits that do not represent real emissions reductions.&#8221; </p>
<p>Yet you fail to mention that weakness also underlies your strategy: &#8220;deploy existing and near-term low-carbon technologies as fast as is humanly possible.&#8221;</p>
<p>The conclusions of studies would clearly show that by insistency on emissions reducing technologies (let&#8217;s just call them ripoff technologies for the spite of it) any deployment of sufficient scale will involve substantial deployment of technologies that do not represent real emissions reductions. Isn&#8217;t it STARK????</p>
<p>At least these so-called ripoffsets put into practical numerical terms the carbon savings that are achieved through certain practices. It&#8217;s clear that the claims can be evaluated and false reporting practices can be mitigated. It&#8217;s clear to the American taxpayers that spending billions of taxpayer dollars on new unproven technologies at high rates is not going to happen. Furthermore, it is not an easy feat to measure improvements on a global scale of the effect of technologies that are deployed in manageable sized projects.</p>
<p>And the worst thing is, if you add a large number to a small number, the result is larger than the large number. So your solution ends up with more of a problem, not less. On the other hand, the goal of offsets, though it may be more difficult to accomplish, is to make less of a problem. Instead of laughing at google for not being as carbon neutral as they claim, we could instead start to urge companies like google to become carbon negative. Only through negativity can gains be made on a global scale.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Adams</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-21327</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 14:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-21327</guid>
		<description>Let’s not Throw the Baby out with the Bathwater
October 30th, 2008 

Jeffery Ball’s WSJ article highlights an issue that has surrounded carbon offsets for a while now.  The article echoes the concerns brought about when the House tried to green itself last winter.  Now the term rip-offsets has been coined to describe offsets where the underlying project does not provide additionality. 

But in this recent hubbub, let’s not lose sight of the fact that well-designed programs that marry public policy and market forces can be very powerful in solving ecological problems. The shining success is clearly the EPA’s Acid Rain program that has virtually solved the acid rain problem at a fraction of the projected cost and has been the model for Kyoto’s cap and trade design.   So rather than dismiss offsets entirely, let’s understand their role in the fight against global warming and improve on today’s market-based approaches.


Transparency, Choice and Value 

It’s challenging to birth a voluntary carbon market where there has been, by and large, no regulatory framework. In the absence of federal leadership on Kyoto and due to an evolving variety of certification standards, there have been several models that have evolved to develop a voluntary carbon market in the US, both exchange and broker-based.  To mitigate the challenges highlighted in the recent articles and improve the pace of market development, we need new approaches that bring three key elements to the equation – transparency, choice and value.


The problem highlighted in Mr. Ball’s article is a lack of additionality – namely people are getting paid for something they’re already doing, or, as the landfill owner in the article put it: “It seemed a little suspicious that we could get money for doing nothing.”



While additionality is the symptom, the lack of transparency is the root cause. A buyer cannot determine the quality of the credit without understanding the project that generated it and the standards and protocols certifying the offset.  If the offset is co-mingled with offsets from a variety of projects, the task gets even harder.


A second challenge is a lack of choice: any given broker or exchange may only have a handful of projects or project types for a buyer to evaluate.  With less choice, there will be less market activity.  


Finally, the value of the offset tends to be opaque.  There really isn’t a published market price for offsets because they have differing value based on the project generating them (type, certification standard, credit risk, delivery risk, etc). The lack of a pricing mechanism where a buyer can be confident that they’re getting a transparent, market price for a specific credit is also a drag on the pace of market development.


Offsets are fulfilling an important role in bringing market approaches to increase the velocity of capital from greenhouse gas mitigator to project operator.

Let’s not let flaws in some of the early business models cause us to abandon our efforts to solve the most challenging environmental problem of our generation.  Rather, let’s improve on these early models to create more efficient and effective market mechanisms.  

Phil Adams, President

World Energy Solutions, Inc. (www.worldenergy.com)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let’s not Throw the Baby out with the Bathwater<br />
October 30th, 2008 </p>
<p>Jeffery Ball’s WSJ article highlights an issue that has surrounded carbon offsets for a while now.  The article echoes the concerns brought about when the House tried to green itself last winter.  Now the term rip-offsets has been coined to describe offsets where the underlying project does not provide additionality. </p>
<p>But in this recent hubbub, let’s not lose sight of the fact that well-designed programs that marry public policy and market forces can be very powerful in solving ecological problems. The shining success is clearly the EPA’s Acid Rain program that has virtually solved the acid rain problem at a fraction of the projected cost and has been the model for Kyoto’s cap and trade design.   So rather than dismiss offsets entirely, let’s understand their role in the fight against global warming and improve on today’s market-based approaches.</p>
<p>Transparency, Choice and Value </p>
<p>It’s challenging to birth a voluntary carbon market where there has been, by and large, no regulatory framework. In the absence of federal leadership on Kyoto and due to an evolving variety of certification standards, there have been several models that have evolved to develop a voluntary carbon market in the US, both exchange and broker-based.  To mitigate the challenges highlighted in the recent articles and improve the pace of market development, we need new approaches that bring three key elements to the equation – transparency, choice and value.</p>
<p>The problem highlighted in Mr. Ball’s article is a lack of additionality – namely people are getting paid for something they’re already doing, or, as the landfill owner in the article put it: “It seemed a little suspicious that we could get money for doing nothing.”</p>
<p>While additionality is the symptom, the lack of transparency is the root cause. A buyer cannot determine the quality of the credit without understanding the project that generated it and the standards and protocols certifying the offset.  If the offset is co-mingled with offsets from a variety of projects, the task gets even harder.</p>
<p>A second challenge is a lack of choice: any given broker or exchange may only have a handful of projects or project types for a buyer to evaluate.  With less choice, there will be less market activity.  </p>
<p>Finally, the value of the offset tends to be opaque.  There really isn’t a published market price for offsets because they have differing value based on the project generating them (type, certification standard, credit risk, delivery risk, etc). The lack of a pricing mechanism where a buyer can be confident that they’re getting a transparent, market price for a specific credit is also a drag on the pace of market development.</p>
<p>Offsets are fulfilling an important role in bringing market approaches to increase the velocity of capital from greenhouse gas mitigator to project operator.</p>
<p>Let’s not let flaws in some of the early business models cause us to abandon our efforts to solve the most challenging environmental problem of our generation.  Rather, let’s improve on these early models to create more efficient and effective market mechanisms.  </p>
<p>Phil Adams, President</p>
<p>World Energy Solutions, Inc. (www.worldenergy.com)</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Coleman</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-20836</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-20836</guid>
		<description>Well, this is a heck of a note: being twinned with the WSJ!  Not in my worst nightmare.  Oh well.

Joe, what is wrong if the methane capture off-set &quot;mainly just accelerates some inevitable projects a few years&quot;?  Those few years matter a lot if we are going to avoid runaway GW.  Following your argument, they ought to be phased out.  Fine.  Of course, methane capture is not likely to be a big player, but if not, coal companies cannot hide behind it.

Regarding the Stanford estimate that &quot;between 1/3 and 2/3 of emission off-sets under CDM do not represent actual emission cuts,&quot; there is a big difference between 1/3 and 2/3.  At 1/3, it might be worth keeping the off-sets while working to tighten them.  At 2/3, it&#039;s probably hopeless.  Without a more precise figure, there is the danger of confirmation bias, focusing on the 1/3 or the 2/3, depending on one’s bias.

I deny “assuming facts that are not in evidence.”  By using an “if” statement, I was saying “suppose we assume that….”  This is very different from “assuming facts,” which implies believing the facts are, well, “facts.”  I’m sorry if you read it differently.

The larger issue is whether off-sets in general should be part of a federal program. You have presented a powerful case that they should not, given the possibility of industry’s using them to avoid real reductions. Is there any objection to a market for &lt;i&gt;individuals&lt;/i&gt; to buy off-sets? (&lt;I&gt;Caveat emptor&lt;/I&gt;, of course.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this is a heck of a note: being twinned with the WSJ!  Not in my worst nightmare.  Oh well.</p>
<p>Joe, what is wrong if the methane capture off-set &#8220;mainly just accelerates some inevitable projects a few years&#8221;?  Those few years matter a lot if we are going to avoid runaway GW.  Following your argument, they ought to be phased out.  Fine.  Of course, methane capture is not likely to be a big player, but if not, coal companies cannot hide behind it.</p>
<p>Regarding the Stanford estimate that &#8220;between 1/3 and 2/3 of emission off-sets under CDM do not represent actual emission cuts,&#8221; there is a big difference between 1/3 and 2/3.  At 1/3, it might be worth keeping the off-sets while working to tighten them.  At 2/3, it&#8217;s probably hopeless.  Without a more precise figure, there is the danger of confirmation bias, focusing on the 1/3 or the 2/3, depending on one’s bias.</p>
<p>I deny “assuming facts that are not in evidence.”  By using an “if” statement, I was saying “suppose we assume that….”  This is very different from “assuming facts,” which implies believing the facts are, well, “facts.”  I’m sorry if you read it differently.</p>
<p>The larger issue is whether off-sets in general should be part of a federal program. You have presented a powerful case that they should not, given the possibility of industry’s using them to avoid real reductions. Is there any objection to a market for <i>individuals</i> to buy off-sets? (<i>Caveat emptor</i>, of course.)</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-20819</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-20819</guid>
		<description>What is needed is &#039;contract-or-tax&#039;.  Either someone wanting to emit fossil-based CO2 contracts with some organization to permanently sequester the same amount of carbon or else pay a tax and have the government do the contracting.

I can think of two methods to sequester carbon dioxide which will cost about $30--40 per tonne of CO2.  One of these, mineralization via olivine, offers the propect that the price might be brought down to around $15 per tonne, eventually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is needed is &#8216;contract-or-tax&#8217;.  Either someone wanting to emit fossil-based CO2 contracts with some organization to permanently sequester the same amount of carbon or else pay a tax and have the government do the contracting.</p>
<p>I can think of two methods to sequester carbon dioxide which will cost about $30&#8211;40 per tonne of CO2.  One of these, mineralization via olivine, offers the propect that the price might be brought down to around $15 per tonne, eventually.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Chittum</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-20813</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Chittum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-20813</guid>
		<description>A fundamental problem with &quot;cap and trade&quot; is that environmentalists hear &quot;CAP and trade&quot; and businesses hear &quot;cap and TRADE&quot; and/or &quot;cap and EVADE.&quot;  Trying to design a system that manipulates market forces to achieve indirectly what some are afraid to talk about directly will not achieve the environmental goals.  For example, those who mine, transport, and burn coal are going to fight just as fiercely against a market manipulation system that eliminates coal as they would against an explicit regulation banning it.  If we want the burning of coal to stop--and we should absent CCS--we need to confront the issue directly and pay the politically necessary compensation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A fundamental problem with &#8220;cap and trade&#8221; is that environmentalists hear &#8220;CAP and trade&#8221; and businesses hear &#8220;cap and TRADE&#8221; and/or &#8220;cap and EVADE.&#8221;  Trying to design a system that manipulates market forces to achieve indirectly what some are afraid to talk about directly will not achieve the environmental goals.  For example, those who mine, transport, and burn coal are going to fight just as fiercely against a market manipulation system that eliminates coal as they would against an explicit regulation banning it.  If we want the burning of coal to stop&#8211;and we should absent CCS&#8211;we need to confront the issue directly and pay the politically necessary compensation.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul K</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-20811</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:42:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/10/20/q-from-wsj-blog-are-bogus-carbon-offsets-really-that-bad/#comment-20811</guid>
		<description>What constitutes a real non-rip offset? I can think of only one, actual production of CO2 free energy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What constitutes a real non-rip offset? I can think of only one, actual production of CO2 free energy.</p>
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