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	<title>Comments on: Building a New, Green Economy, Part 1: Calling Dr. Obama…</title>
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	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23334</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 06:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23334</guid>
		<description>what the people want: we all had that argument ten years ago. what i&#039;m talking about is the many ways encouraging and catering to that taste was a terrible business decision.

separating the crash from good gas mileage: (1) for GM and company the crisis started sometime last year, after the home ATM system vanished and the home building boom ended. that would be when defaults and inventory started climbing.

(2) american car makers build many high efficiency cars throughout the world. they used to build them here. they own shares in companies that still build them here. if they wanted to build them here, no ten-year high-tech conversion plan was necessary.

(3) the escape hybrid and the volt are easy to paint as greenwash. they have all the hallmarks.

something outside the boundaries of normal financial planning: yes. but companies as big as these, in the finance business themselves, big scale loan originators in the credit derivatives scenario, they have more to do to explain their actions and their problems than singing the recessionary blues. unlike mpst participants in the real economy they knew the backroom dirt and IMO they went with it because it let them avoid the inevitable squeeze. their risk was &quot;distributed.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what the people want: we all had that argument ten years ago. what i&#8217;m talking about is the many ways encouraging and catering to that taste was a terrible business decision.</p>
<p>separating the crash from good gas mileage: (1) for GM and company the crisis started sometime last year, after the home ATM system vanished and the home building boom ended. that would be when defaults and inventory started climbing.</p>
<p>(2) american car makers build many high efficiency cars throughout the world. they used to build them here. they own shares in companies that still build them here. if they wanted to build them here, no ten-year high-tech conversion plan was necessary.</p>
<p>(3) the escape hybrid and the volt are easy to paint as greenwash. they have all the hallmarks.</p>
<p>something outside the boundaries of normal financial planning: yes. but companies as big as these, in the finance business themselves, big scale loan originators in the credit derivatives scenario, they have more to do to explain their actions and their problems than singing the recessionary blues. unlike mpst participants in the real economy they knew the backroom dirt and IMO they went with it because it let them avoid the inevitable squeeze. their risk was &#8220;distributed.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Wallace</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23297</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 07:00:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23297</guid>
		<description>Well, you might be right. 

But people bought SUVs rather than other types of vehicles offered because they wanted SUVs.  GM would have been quite happy to sell/finance minivans or station wagons or sports cars if that&#039;s what people wanted.

And please separate Detroit&#039;s moves to more efficient models from the current financial crash.  They started working toward more efficient models years ago.  The crash is a scant few months old.

Ford started selling their hybrid Escape in 2004.  That means that development must have started not long after 2000.  Chevy has been actively working on the Volt for several years.

GM isn&#039;t selling product.  No one is.  Not selling product while having a huge overhead that must be met means that there&#039;s no money to fund loans.

Look at all the businesses that are closing.  The list of retailers is immense.  Old names are going away.  Were all those companies terrible at business or have we run up against something outside the boundaries of normal financial planning?  

Normally during recessions corporations borrow money to get them through.  It&#039;s part of their financial plan.

This time there is no money to borrow.  First time since the late 1920s.   Things financial were supposed to be different than then....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you might be right. </p>
<p>But people bought SUVs rather than other types of vehicles offered because they wanted SUVs.  GM would have been quite happy to sell/finance minivans or station wagons or sports cars if that&#8217;s what people wanted.</p>
<p>And please separate Detroit&#8217;s moves to more efficient models from the current financial crash.  They started working toward more efficient models years ago.  The crash is a scant few months old.</p>
<p>Ford started selling their hybrid Escape in 2004.  That means that development must have started not long after 2000.  Chevy has been actively working on the Volt for several years.</p>
<p>GM isn&#8217;t selling product.  No one is.  Not selling product while having a huge overhead that must be met means that there&#8217;s no money to fund loans.</p>
<p>Look at all the businesses that are closing.  The list of retailers is immense.  Old names are going away.  Were all those companies terrible at business or have we run up against something outside the boundaries of normal financial planning?  </p>
<p>Normally during recessions corporations borrow money to get them through.  It&#8217;s part of their financial plan.</p>
<p>This time there is no money to borrow.  First time since the late 1920s.   Things financial were supposed to be different than then&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Asteroid Miner</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23292</link>
		<dc:creator>Asteroid Miner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23292</guid>
		<description>Did anybody notice how Diamler-Benz bought out Chrysler so they could ruin the Dodge Diesel?   At 165 horsepower, that engine was medium duty, meaning it would go about 400,000 miles.   Dr. Z offered it in a choice of horsepowers, knowing that the average consumer is stupid enough to think that more horsepower means heavier duty.   The end result is that Dodge makes that engine put out 325 horsepower, making it LIGHT duty, meaning that it will be worn out in only 100,000 miles.   It won&#039;t do you any good to try to get less horsepower out of it by staying off the gas pedal.   When the peak horsepower goes up, so does the idle horsepower.   Now that the Dodge diesel is ruined, Diamler-Benz sold Chrysler.   There is a Mack truck near here with 1.7 Million miles on without an overhaul.   Mack doesn&#039;t make them that way any more because the drivers wanted more &quot;efficiency.&quot;   There is no possible way to make a heavy duty engine out of a medium duty engine.   If you want a car that will go a million miles, buy an SAE Class 8 truck, like the tractor part of an 18 wheeler.   To get insurance, you will have to put a camper on it so you can register it as a motorhome.   There is no engineering reason why cars can&#039;t go a million miles between overhauls.   It is purely that management won&#039;t allow it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did anybody notice how Diamler-Benz bought out Chrysler so they could ruin the Dodge Diesel?   At 165 horsepower, that engine was medium duty, meaning it would go about 400,000 miles.   Dr. Z offered it in a choice of horsepowers, knowing that the average consumer is stupid enough to think that more horsepower means heavier duty.   The end result is that Dodge makes that engine put out 325 horsepower, making it LIGHT duty, meaning that it will be worn out in only 100,000 miles.   It won&#8217;t do you any good to try to get less horsepower out of it by staying off the gas pedal.   When the peak horsepower goes up, so does the idle horsepower.   Now that the Dodge diesel is ruined, Diamler-Benz sold Chrysler.   There is a Mack truck near here with 1.7 Million miles on without an overhaul.   Mack doesn&#8217;t make them that way any more because the drivers wanted more &#8220;efficiency.&#8221;   There is no possible way to make a heavy duty engine out of a medium duty engine.   If you want a car that will go a million miles, buy an SAE Class 8 truck, like the tractor part of an 18 wheeler.   To get insurance, you will have to put a camper on it so you can register it as a motorhome.   There is no engineering reason why cars can&#8217;t go a million miles between overhauls.   It is purely that management won&#8217;t allow it.</p>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23291</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 00:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23291</guid>
		<description>one or both of the last two paragraphs is an unindented citation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>one or both of the last two paragraphs is an unindented citation?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23290</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 00:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23290</guid>
		<description>Blockquote missing?  Don&#039;t know what you mean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blockquote missing?  Don&#8217;t know what you mean.</p>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23286</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23286</guid>
		<description>sorry for the third comment. it occurs to me that where other car companies are offering rates and prices, GM -- one of the world&#039;s largest finance companies -- is advertising that &lt;em&gt;they will help people secure outside loans&lt;/em&gt;. this says to me that GMAC&#039;s reputation as a loan originator is utterly destroyed.

which would be a &lt;em&gt;direct&lt;/em&gt; result of overselling their customers in both the showroom and the credit market. KABLOOIE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry for the third comment. it occurs to me that where other car companies are offering rates and prices, GM &#8212; one of the world&#8217;s largest finance companies &#8212; is advertising that <em>they will help people secure outside loans</em>. this says to me that GMAC&#8217;s reputation as a loan originator is utterly destroyed.</p>
<p>which would be a <em>direct</em> result of overselling their customers in both the showroom and the credit market. KABLOOIE.</p>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23285</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23285</guid>
		<description>bill becker/joe: good stuff.

there&#039;s a &quot;blockquote&quot; missing at the end of the story? which part&#039;s the quote?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bill becker/joe: good stuff.</p>
<p>there&#8217;s a &#8220;blockquote&#8221; missing at the end of the story? which part&#8217;s the quote?</p>
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		<title>By: hapa</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23284</link>
		<dc:creator>hapa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23284</guid>
		<description>@Bob W.: disagree.

&lt;blockquote&gt;As best as I can tell these are companies that are in transition from providers of large vehicles (which&lt;/blockquote&gt;

...were a debt-financed national splurge, like mcmansions, and shopping malls in the desert, before them...

&lt;blockquote&gt;) to more efficient vehicles (where the market&lt;/blockquote&gt;

...has been in more sensibly-run economies for decades...

&lt;blockquote&gt;).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

in other words, the SUV demand was driven by policy. cheap, unlimited credit policy. the US car companies got beat because they were really in the loan business and they were selling vehicles with that in mind, in a speculative credit market, to a group of people who think &quot;down payment&quot; and &quot;cost&quot; are the same thing.

now the bubble&#039;s popped in their faces and no surprise at all, they&#039;re the worst off of any automotive manufacturers on the planet and on top of their inventory grief their past is haunting them, as loan defaults.

in other words, fine, there was a market, but it wasn&#039;t a sustainable market in the financial sense and their overcommitment to it shows they stink at business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bob W.: disagree.</p>
<blockquote><p>As best as I can tell these are companies that are in transition from providers of large vehicles (which</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230;were a debt-financed national splurge, like mcmansions, and shopping malls in the desert, before them&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>) to more efficient vehicles (where the market</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230;has been in more sensibly-run economies for decades&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>).</p></blockquote>
<p>in other words, the SUV demand was driven by policy. cheap, unlimited credit policy. the US car companies got beat because they were really in the loan business and they were selling vehicles with that in mind, in a speculative credit market, to a group of people who think &#8220;down payment&#8221; and &#8220;cost&#8221; are the same thing.</p>
<p>now the bubble&#8217;s popped in their faces and no surprise at all, they&#8217;re the worst off of any automotive manufacturers on the planet and on top of their inventory grief their past is haunting them, as loan defaults.</p>
<p>in other words, fine, there was a market, but it wasn&#8217;t a sustainable market in the financial sense and their overcommitment to it shows they stink at business.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Wallace</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23279</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23279</guid>
		<description>It seems that people need to take a look at GM and Ford 2009 vs. GM and Ford 1995.

A few years back (it takes a few years to bring new vehicles to market) both companies started putting more emphasis on efficient models.

Chevy has seven 2009 models that deliver greater than 30 mpg performance.  Their Impala delivers roughly the same mileage as the slightly smaller and lighter Camry.  They have the PHEV Volt coming to market in 2010.

Ford  has had the Escape hybrid SUV on the market since 2004.  They are bringing some of their efficient European cars  to the US market.

As best as I can tell these are companies that are in transition from providers of large vehicles (which the American market wanted) to more efficient vehicles (where the market is headed).

(BTW, I don&#039;t drive Detroit.  Haven&#039;t since the mid-1960s.  Except for my firewood pickup, used Toyotas were too expensive for what I needed .)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that people need to take a look at GM and Ford 2009 vs. GM and Ford 1995.</p>
<p>A few years back (it takes a few years to bring new vehicles to market) both companies started putting more emphasis on efficient models.</p>
<p>Chevy has seven 2009 models that deliver greater than 30 mpg performance.  Their Impala delivers roughly the same mileage as the slightly smaller and lighter Camry.  They have the PHEV Volt coming to market in 2010.</p>
<p>Ford  has had the Escape hybrid SUV on the market since 2004.  They are bringing some of their efficient European cars  to the US market.</p>
<p>As best as I can tell these are companies that are in transition from providers of large vehicles (which the American market wanted) to more efficient vehicles (where the market is headed).</p>
<p>(BTW, I don&#8217;t drive Detroit.  Haven&#8217;t since the mid-1960s.  Except for my firewood pickup, used Toyotas were too expensive for what I needed .)</p>
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		<title>By: red</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23278</link>
		<dc:creator>red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/29/building-a-new-green-economy-part-1-calling-dr-obama%e2%80%a6/#comment-23278</guid>
		<description>&quot;First, there’s an important difference between economic stimulus and economic transformation, and the latter is what we need. The Big Three are a case in point. We shouldn’t give them an infusion of taxpayer money just so they can continue their unhealthy habits.&quot;

Rewarding failure is always a danger with government bailouts (and with politics the way it is, most government programs).  

In its latest weekly roundup of news on efficient cars, X PRIZE Cars blog 

xprizecars.com/2008/11/axp-news-nov-19-2008.php

has a link to an article &quot;Pressure to Bailout Big Three Grows, But What About Startups?&quot; by Gas 2.0 with some suggestions to level the &quot;bailout playing field&quot; between startups and the Big 3 while also generally encouraging electric vehicles:

1. Low-interest loan guarantees (so startups get access to capital too)
2. Fair application of tax credits (for EVs not favoring GM)
3. Government assistance for purchase financing
4. Immediate efforts to begin construction of a nationwide charging network</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;First, there’s an important difference between economic stimulus and economic transformation, and the latter is what we need. The Big Three are a case in point. We shouldn’t give them an infusion of taxpayer money just so they can continue their unhealthy habits.&#8221;</p>
<p>Rewarding failure is always a danger with government bailouts (and with politics the way it is, most government programs).  </p>
<p>In its latest weekly roundup of news on efficient cars, X PRIZE Cars blog </p>
<p>xprizecars.com/2008/11/axp-news-nov-19-2008.php</p>
<p>has a link to an article &#8220;Pressure to Bailout Big Three Grows, But What About Startups?&#8221; by Gas 2.0 with some suggestions to level the &#8220;bailout playing field&#8221; between startups and the Big 3 while also generally encouraging electric vehicles:</p>
<p>1. Low-interest loan guarantees (so startups get access to capital too)<br />
2. Fair application of tax credits (for EVs not favoring GM)<br />
3. Government assistance for purchase financing<br />
4. Immediate efforts to begin construction of a nationwide charging network</p>
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