Comments on: NSIDC: Arctic melt passes the point of no return, “We hate to say we told you so, but we did” http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:55:22 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Aaron d http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-32283 Aaron d Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:45:36 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-32283 I have to agree with caerbannog's overall point. I agree its great when someone asks a question and goes to find the truth by reading science. But to be honest, the majority of the things people are reading are press releases from studies. And we know how bad the media interprets science. Core samples are a fundamental part of the evidence for global warming. Be it ice cores, or sediment cores, they're all part of it and worth while knowing. I can't tell you how many times I hear someone say, "How can they know how much CO2 was in the atmosphere and what the temp was 100k years ago." Without ice cores we wouldn't know this. I think you need to look at all the evidence, not just the temp. data. I have to agree with caerbannog’s overall point. I agree its great when someone asks a question and goes to find the truth by reading science. But to be honest, the majority of the things people are reading are press releases from studies. And we know how bad the media interprets science. Core samples are a fundamental part of the evidence for global warming. Be it ice cores, or sediment cores, they’re all part of it and worth while knowing. I can’t tell you how many times I hear someone say, “How can they know how much CO2 was in the atmosphere and what the temp was 100k years ago.” Without ice cores we wouldn’t know this. I think you need to look at all the evidence, not just the temp. data.

]]> By: Mike D http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24997 Mike D Thu, 18 Dec 2008 04:17:13 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24997 caer- Relax. There are a lot of non-experts out there who are trying to understand this and it's perfectly acceptable for them to start from a point of skepticism. He didn't roll in here cursing the name of Al Gore or spewing out false information, he presented some real data and asked a legit question. When someone gave him some more info he went off to examine it. That's all we could hope for. caer-

Relax. There are a lot of non-experts out there who are trying to understand this and it’s perfectly acceptable for them to start from a point of skepticism. He didn’t roll in here cursing the name of Al Gore or spewing out false information, he presented some real data and asked a legit question. When someone gave him some more info he went off to examine it. That’s all we could hope for.

]]> By: caerbannog http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24914 caerbannog Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:21:43 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24914 <i> Bob I am not looking at anything so sophisticated as Arctic Ocean sediments </i> And that is the core of the problem here. If you consider evidence like sediment cores to be too sophisticated to look at, you will never understand or appreciate the overwhelming scientific evidence for human-caused global-warming.
Bob I am not looking at anything so sophisticated as Arctic Ocean sediments

And that is the core of the problem here. If you consider evidence like sediment cores to be too sophisticated to look at, you will never understand or appreciate the overwhelming scientific evidence for human-caused global-warming.

]]> By: Richard C http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24905 Richard C Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:45:42 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24905 The time to act...I think you were right the first time. The time to act…I think you were right the first time.

]]> By: Bob Wallace http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24888 Bob Wallace Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:11:48 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24888 No prob, Neil. Please share what you learn. Especially if you find I've got it wrong. (The problems that a lot of us have with "deniers" is that they aren't seeking answers. They've got a firmly held belief and they look for ways to support that belief. Even if it means denying well-collected data and flat out lying about stuff that's been proved to be wrong.) No prob, Neil.

Please share what you learn.

Especially if you find I’ve got it wrong.

(The problems that a lot of us have with “deniers” is that they aren’t seeking answers. They’ve got a firmly held belief and they look for ways to support that belief. Even if it means denying well-collected data and flat out lying about stuff that’s been proved to be wrong.)

]]> By: Mark Shapiro http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24885 Mark Shapiro Wed, 17 Dec 2008 04:46:30 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24885 Neil - I’m not familiar with the temp record, but it looks like the Arctic summer and autumn temps are now higher than ever, and the ice is melting so that the open ocean absorbs sunlight and heats up. You can see the effect on the ice extent in at UIC’s Cryosphere Today site – http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere Check their NH sea ice extent graph at - - http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg Summer and autumn sea ice are way down. That’s why it’s “passing the point of no return”. It's very bad news. Neil -

I’m not familiar with the temp record, but it looks like the Arctic summer and autumn temps are now higher than ever, and the ice is melting so that the open ocean absorbs sunlight and heats up.

You can see the effect on the ice extent in at UIC’s Cryosphere Today site –

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere

Check their NH sea ice extent graph at – -

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/ cryosphere/ IMAGES/ seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg

Summer and autumn sea ice are way down. That’s why it’s “passing the point of no return”. It’s very bad news.

]]> By: Neil Hampshire http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24882 Neil Hampshire Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:15:19 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24882 Thanks Bob You have given me a lot to read Neil Thanks Bob
You have given me a lot to read
Neil

]]> By: Bob Wallace http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24874 Bob Wallace Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:34:40 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24874 Neil - I'm playing outside of my league here, but here's what I think tells the story. Perhaps someone knowledgeable in the field can give us both a better answer. Take a look at this page - the graph in the upper right. Top line. http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/ Back around the turn of last century the data shows a very pronounced temperature increase. In the late 1930s temperatures hit a temporary peak and then cooled off a bit. This cooling off corresponds with the observed period called "Global Dimming" which, IIRC, seems to have come from all the very dirty coal that we burned during and right after WW II. Once we switched to cleaner coal (and dealt with acid rain) temperatures began to rise once more. Had the temps of the late 1930s held we would probably have seen an ice free Arctic a long time ago. Note that we reached the 1930s-type temps in the early 1980s but it took a couple of decades to warm things up enough to create major melting. Neil – I’m playing outside of my league here, but here’s what I think tells the story. Perhaps someone knowledgeable in the field can give us both a better answer.

Take a look at this page – the graph in the upper right. Top line.

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/

Back around the turn of last century the data shows a very pronounced temperature increase. In the late 1930s temperatures hit a temporary peak and then cooled off a bit. This cooling off corresponds with the observed period called “Global Dimming” which, IIRC, seems to have come from all the very dirty coal that we burned during and right after WW II.

Once we switched to cleaner coal (and dealt with acid rain) temperatures began to rise once more.

Had the temps of the late 1930s held we would probably have seen an ice free Arctic a long time ago. Note that we reached the 1930s-type temps in the early 1980s but it took a couple of decades to warm things up enough to create major melting.

]]> By: Michael Clausen http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24860 Michael Clausen Tue, 16 Dec 2008 23:06:00 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24860 "The time to act is January 20, 2008" Shouldn't this be January 20, 2009? [<em>JR: The wish was father to the thought. Corrected. Thanks.</em>] “The time to act is January 20, 2008″

Shouldn’t this be January 20, 2009?

[JR: The wish was father to the thought. Corrected. Thanks.]

]]> By: Tony http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24859 Tony Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:39:03 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/15/nsidc-arctic-melt-passes-the-point-of-no-return-we-hate-to-say-we-told-you-so-but-we-did/#comment-24859 This site appears to be an invaluable resource. I appreciate the links and technical savvy. As far as "deniers", I've use the word "naysayers", and the media generally, in it's own pathetic fashion, tends to elevate anyone with a contrary opinion to an equivalent stature, regardless of evidence or their representing zero peer-reviewed journals. The predominance of ignorance or purposeful misinformation is a dark chapter in our legacy. I for one appreciate those willing to put the rigor back into science, and to pull the politics out of it. May we return to the days of true innovation, true debate, and civil society. Then perhaps we have a chance at an equitable range of mitigation and adaptation strategies. Thanks again, Tony This site appears to be an invaluable resource. I appreciate the links and technical savvy.

As far as “deniers”, I’ve use the word “naysayers”, and the media generally, in it’s own pathetic fashion, tends to elevate anyone with a contrary opinion to an equivalent stature, regardless of evidence or their representing zero peer-reviewed journals.

The predominance of ignorance or purposeful misinformation is a dark chapter in our legacy. I for one appreciate those willing to put the rigor back into science, and to pull the politics out of it.

May we return to the days of true innovation, true debate, and civil society. Then perhaps we have a chance at an equitable range of mitigation and adaptation strategies.

Thanks again,
Tony

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