Comments on: Boxer asks DOJ to force EPA withdrawal of ‘blatantly illegal’ emissions memo http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:16:08 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Joe Koncelik http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25909 Joe Koncelik Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:19:56 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25909 While I certainly understand the desire to limit greenhouse gases, I wonder whether many on the internet truly understand the implications of controlling GHGs under the Clean Air Act. The Act, as it is currently written, was simply not designed to control such a ubiquitous pollutant. While controls on coal plants may sound like a good idea, you can't pick and choose which portions of the Clean Air Act will apply to GHGs. Do you really want federal air permits for every new commercial store and large building? Isn't it better to let Congress design a system that better suits the nature of CO2 and the other GHGs? While I certainly understand the desire to limit greenhouse gases, I wonder whether many on the internet truly understand the implications of controlling GHGs under the Clean Air Act. The Act, as it is currently written, was simply not designed to control such a ubiquitous pollutant. While controls on coal plants may sound like a good idea, you can’t pick and choose which portions of the Clean Air Act will apply to GHGs. Do you really want federal air permits for every new commercial store and large building? Isn’t it better to let Congress design a system that better suits the nature of CO2 and the other GHGs?

]]> By: Shelly http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25821 Shelly Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:24:52 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25821 Forgot the link -- here is the Peter Barnes video explaining his carbon reduction plan. http://fora.tv/2008/06/20/Peter_Barnes_Explains_His_Carbon_Emissions_Reduction_Plan Forgot the link — here is the Peter Barnes video explaining his carbon reduction plan.

http://fora.tv/ 2008/ 06/ 20/ Peter_Barnes_Explains_His_Carbon_Emissions_Reduction_Plan

]]> By: Shelly http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25820 Shelly Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:23:16 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25820 steve h -- are you kidding? Transfer the cost to the consumer? The consumer is broke. The consumer is losing their homes and getting their utilities shut off. The consumer has no more money for your plan. The best idea I have heard so far is a cap and dividend program. Consumers are hurting very badly right now, are losing their homes, and charging them for the fuels that are on the market is simply not fair. Consumers should be conserving as much as they can, but they should not be charged extra for using what is on the market. Consumers didn't determine the types of fuel that are available to us. Cap and dividend gives money back to the consumers. You can see it explained here by Peter Barnes. Cap and dividend is also the plan encouraged by James Hansen of NASA. His plan is a little different but you can find it on his website under the recent paper about telling the truth to Obama. Consumers cannot be held primarily financial responsible for the mistakes of big oil and big coal and Congress. They just buy what's available. If solar and wind were affordable right now that is what people would be buying and using. If electric cars were on the market they would be flying out the dealer's floors. I want Exxon and Shell to pay for what they have done, not my neighbors. steve h — are you kidding? Transfer the cost to the consumer? The consumer is broke.
The consumer is losing their homes and getting their utilities shut off. The consumer has no more money for your plan.

The best idea I have heard so far is a cap and dividend program. Consumers are hurting very badly right now, are losing their homes, and charging them for the fuels that are on the market is simply not fair. Consumers should be conserving as much as they can, but they should not be charged extra for using what is on the market. Consumers didn’t determine the types of fuel that are available to us. Cap and dividend gives money back to the consumers. You can see it explained here by Peter Barnes. Cap and dividend is also the plan encouraged by James Hansen of NASA. His plan is a little different but you can find it on his website under the recent paper about telling the truth to Obama. Consumers cannot be held primarily financial responsible for the mistakes of big oil and big coal and Congress. They just buy what’s available. If solar and wind were affordable right now that is what people would be buying and using. If electric cars were on the market they would be flying out the dealer’s floors. I want Exxon and Shell to pay for what they have done, not my neighbors.

]]> By: Asteroid Miner http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25685 Asteroid Miner Fri, 26 Dec 2008 02:36:35 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25685 John Hollenberg: Where are you going to use concrete with that much URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY, Antimony, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine, Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium, Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium, Chlorine, Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum and Zinc in it? Coal contains all of those elements and coal ash has those elements concentrated by the removal of carbon. Woops! I forgot Thorium. Uranium and thorium decay products are already the source of the radon in houses. [Uranium and thorium are present in the core of the earth and in the rocks in the ground.] Uranium is a chemical poison. John Hollenberg: Where are you going to use concrete with that much URANIUM, ARSENIC, LEAD, MERCURY, Antimony, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Selenium, Barium, Fluorine, Silver, Beryllium, Iron, Sulfur, Boron, Titanium, Cadmium, Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese, Vanadium, Chlorine, Aluminum, Chromium, Molybdenum and Zinc in it? Coal contains all of those elements and coal ash has those elements concentrated by the removal of carbon. Woops! I forgot Thorium. Uranium and thorium decay products are already the source of the radon in houses. [Uranium and thorium are present in the core of the earth and in the rocks in the ground.] Uranium is a chemical poison.

]]> By: John Hollenberg http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25631 John Hollenberg Thu, 25 Dec 2008 02:11:47 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25631 Other interesting articles about sequestering CO2 by using the effluent from coal burning power plants to make cement: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=cement-from-carbon-dioxide http://venturebeat.com/2007/10/05/calera-pulls-carbon-dioxide-out-of-atmosphere-to-produce-cement/ Other interesting articles about sequestering CO2 by using the effluent from coal burning power plants to make cement:

http://www.sciam.com/ article.cfm?id=cement-from-carbon-dioxide

http://venturebeat.com/ 2007/ 10/ 05/ calera-pulls-carbon-dioxide-out-of-atmosphere-to-produce-cement/

]]> By: David B. Benson http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25613 David B. Benson Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:28:06 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25613 Joe Romm --- I've tryed to point you to Olaf Schuiling's proposal before, but maybe I'll have to send an e-mail. Anyway, the ideas indicated in ftp://ftp.geog.uu.nl/pub/posters/2008/Let_the_earth_help_us_to_save_the_earth-Schuiling_June2008.pdf can, both Schuiling and I agree, be accomplished for $15 (or less) per tonne of CO2 permanently removed. [<em>JR: Awesome!</em>] Joe Romm — I’ve tryed to point you to Olaf Schuiling’s proposal before, but maybe I’ll have to send an e-mail. Anyway, the ideas indicated in

ftp://ftp.geog.uu.nl/ pub/ posters/ 2008/ Let_the_earth_help_us_to_save_the_earth-Schuiling_June2008.pdf

can, both Schuiling and I agree, be accomplished for $15 (or less) per tonne of CO2 permanently removed.

[JR: Awesome!]

]]> By: steve h http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25595 steve h Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:07:34 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25595 Suzie Q, No, in a communist country, you would live in drab flat with concrete walls. We have to draw a line at some point between polluting to fulfill need and polluting to satisfy wants. I don't think its right to tell people they can't live in a 5000 sq ft home, but if they want to they have to pay out the wazoo for it. Again, if you want to purchase a nice new Expedition, go ahead, but you'll have to pay much more for it. Its a system of assigning costs to undesirable behaviors in a way that makes it easier on those just trying to fulfill needs (driving to work in a beat-up 1993 Corolla) versus those trying to fulfill wants. David, I'm not too concerned about the numbers themselves at this point, but its just a matter of assigning a cost to the pollution as soon as possible, and a fuel tax would do that. I don't think we will ever stop coal plants from producing energy with a tax, but the goal now is to make it more difficult for them to turn a profit without accounting for their environmental impact. In this way we can hope to make investment in new coal plants more risky than investing in alternatives. You can go to the wikipedia entry for carbon tax for detail examination of numbers, but I don't want to get too involved with that. I'm more of a perspective person on matters I'm not an expert in. Suzie Q,

No, in a communist country, you would live in drab flat with concrete walls. We have to draw a line at some point between polluting to fulfill need and polluting to satisfy wants. I don’t think its right to tell people they can’t live in a 5000 sq ft home, but if they want to they have to pay out the wazoo for it. Again, if you want to purchase a nice new Expedition, go ahead, but you’ll have to pay much more for it. Its a system of assigning costs to undesirable behaviors in a way that makes it easier on those just trying to fulfill needs (driving to work in a beat-up 1993 Corolla) versus those trying to fulfill wants.

David,

I’m not too concerned about the numbers themselves at this point, but its just a matter of assigning a cost to the pollution as soon as possible, and a fuel tax would do that. I don’t think we will ever stop coal plants from producing energy with a tax, but the goal now is to make it more difficult for them to turn a profit without accounting for their environmental impact. In this way we can hope to make investment in new coal plants more risky than investing in alternatives. You can go to the wikipedia entry for carbon tax for detail examination of numbers, but I don’t want to get too involved with that. I’m more of a perspective person on matters I’m not an expert in.

]]> By: David B. Benson http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25540 David B. Benson Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:25:51 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25540 steve h --- Actually, less than $15 per tonne of CO2 is enough to permanently remove it. Well, some scoflaws won't end up paying such a 'excess carbon dioxide removal fee', so say $20 per tonne for those who have no choice but to pay it. Then in the developed countries add another $15 per tonne to start removing some of the current excess; that's now $35 per tonne of CO2. What's that for Central Appalachiam coal costs at the mine head; also for gasoline? [JR: <em>Not sure where you got those numbers, but European prices hit $40 a tonne of CO2 this year, and companies in four European countries were still planning to build new coal plants</em>.] steve h — Actually, less than $15 per tonne of CO2 is enough to permanently remove it. Well, some scoflaws won’t end up paying such a ‘excess carbon dioxide removal fee’, so say $20 per tonne for those who have no choice but to pay it. Then in the developed countries add another $15 per tonne to start removing some of the current excess; that’s now $35 per tonne of CO2.

What’s that for Central Appalachiam coal costs at the mine head; also for gasoline?

[JR: Not sure where you got those numbers, but European prices hit $40 a tonne of CO2 this year, and companies in four European countries were still planning to build new coal plants.]

]]> By: suzie q http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25539 suzie q Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:16:27 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25539 Lets just formally declare a communist society and tell people what they can and cannot do. Are you seriously advocating that we limit the square footage of someone's home, or limit the number of SUVs sold? [<em>JR: No. This isn't the blog for absurdist straw men arguments. On the other hand, are you seriously advocating doing nothing to sharply reverse emissions trends, thereby condemning our children and the next 50 generations to a ruined planet?</em>] Lets just formally declare a communist society and tell people what they can and cannot do. Are you seriously advocating that we limit the square footage of someone’s home, or limit the number of SUVs sold?

[JR: No. This isn't the blog for absurdist straw men arguments. On the other hand, are you seriously advocating doing nothing to sharply reverse emissions trends, thereby condemning our children and the next 50 generations to a ruined planet?]

]]> By: Matt http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25521 Matt Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:17:29 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/22/boxer-asks-doj-to-force-epa-withdrawal-of-blatantly-illegal-emissions-memo/#comment-25521 Obama cannot become president soon enough. Obama cannot become president soon enough.

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