Comments on: The day ‘clean coal’ died http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:38:10 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Dennis Denuto http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-33510 Dennis Denuto Thu, 19 Mar 2009 02:02:10 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-33510 Tangential but interesting. Hartfield Ferry coal-fired plant finally gets scrubbers install to cut SOx etc. and reduce air pollution, plans to discharge the increased heavy-metal-laden waste water stream directly into the Monogahela River. http://www.heraldstandard.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20281153&BRD=2280&PAG=461&dept_id=480247&rfi=6 Tangential but interesting. Hartfield Ferry coal-fired plant finally gets scrubbers install to cut SOx etc. and reduce air pollution, plans to discharge the increased heavy-metal-laden waste water stream directly into the Monogahela River.

http://www.heraldstandard.com/ site/ news.cfm?newsid=20281153&BRD=2280&PAG=461&dept_id=480247&rfi=6

]]> By: David Lewis http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25955 David Lewis Wed, 31 Dec 2008 19:57:16 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25955 One recommendation in the IAC report Stephen Chu co-chaired said this about CCS: "pursue carbon capture and storage with systems that co-fire coal and biomass. This technology combination provides an opportunity to achieve net negative greenhouse gas emissions - effectively removing CO2 from the atmosphere". One way to make the capture of CO2 easier is to burn whatever is burned in pure O2. This is the process used in the Schwarze Pumpe plant in Germany. One recommendation in the IAC report Stephen Chu co-chaired said this about CCS:

“pursue carbon capture and storage with systems that co-fire coal and biomass. This technology combination provides an opportunity to achieve net negative greenhouse gas emissions – effectively removing CO2 from the atmosphere”.

One way to make the capture of CO2 easier is to burn whatever is burned in pure O2. This is the process used in the Schwarze Pumpe plant in Germany.

]]> By: David B. Benson http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25856 David B. Benson Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:33:53 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25856 That is for dry weight. That is for dry weight.

]]> By: David B. Benson http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25855 David B. Benson Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:32:08 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25855 Jim Bullis --- Flue gas (the result of burning in air) varies from 6% from burning natural gas to 15.5% from burning wood. Jim Bullis — Flue gas (the result of burning in air) varies from 6% from burning natural gas to 15.5% from burning wood.

]]> By: Jim Bullis http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25828 Jim Bullis Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:31:57 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25828 David B. Benson- The correction from 80% to 34% seems to make sense. What is the corresponding correction for your "6% CO2" in the flue gas. I would assume that it would be about same as natural gas, both being chemically, CH4 more or less. One CH4 molecule should end up as one CO2 molecule and two H2O molecules. One mole of CO2 gas occupies 22.4 liters and two moles of H2O occupies 44.8 liters if my 55 year old memory cells are still correctly readable. But I was just trying to show off. After condensation the flue gas would be 100% CO2 so the mix does not matter at all. Though I think I answered my original question. David B. Benson-

The correction from 80% to 34% seems to make sense. What is the corresponding correction for your “6% CO2″ in the flue gas.

I would assume that it would be about same as natural gas, both being chemically, CH4 more or less. One CH4 molecule should end up as one CO2 molecule and two H2O molecules. One mole of CO2 gas occupies 22.4 liters and two moles of H2O occupies 44.8 liters if my 55 year old memory cells are still correctly readable.

But I was just trying to show off. After condensation the flue gas would be 100% CO2 so the mix does not matter at all. Though I think I answered my original question.

]]> By: David B. Benson http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25800 David B. Benson Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:02:15 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25800 Oops. 34.35%, not 80%. Still, no expensive carbon capture and the whole thing is still carbon-negative. Oops. 34.35%, not 80%.

Still, no expensive carbon capture and the whole thing is still carbon-negative.

]]> By: David B. Benson http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25793 David B. Benson Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:05:45 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25793 Martin Hedberg --- After burning the biomethane, the flue gas is only about 6% CO2; very expensive to capture. My suggestion captures 80% of the carbon so is an '80% carbon negative" solution. That's good enough, methinks, given that the CCS part is so inexpensive. Martin Hedberg — After burning the biomethane, the flue gas is only about 6% CO2; very expensive to capture. My suggestion captures 80% of the carbon so is an ‘80% carbon negative” solution.

That’s good enough, methinks, given that the CCS part is so inexpensive.

]]> By: Martin Hedberg http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25755 Martin Hedberg Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:38:59 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25755 Bio-CCS... David: You have to sequester the carbon dioxide after burning the methane as well. But you don't have to create biogas, you can burn the wooden chips just like you (they) burn fossil coal, and then apply the CCS. I've talked to representatives from Vattenfall (largest energy company in Sweden) and they say it's easy to replace coal with wooden chips. But it is to expensive (because they don't own any forests). However, Bio-CCS really would take away carbon from the atmosphere (given that it doesn't come along with deforestation), not just lower the emissions. Bio-CCS… David: You have to sequester the carbon dioxide after burning the methane as well.
But you don’t have to create biogas, you can burn the wooden chips just like you (they) burn fossil coal, and then apply the CCS.
I’ve talked to representatives from Vattenfall (largest energy company in Sweden) and they say it’s easy to replace coal with wooden chips. But it is to expensive (because they don’t own any forests). However, Bio-CCS really would take away carbon from the atmosphere (given that it doesn’t come along with deforestation), not just lower the emissions.

]]> By: David B. Benson http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25724 David B. Benson Fri, 26 Dec 2008 21:48:02 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25724 The problem is that it is quite espensive to separate CO2 from the rest of the flue gas. With biomass, one does not have to try so hard: Ferment biomass in a digester to form biogasse; separate the methane in the biogasse from everything else; this is known, proven and used technology. The 'everything else' is almost completely CO2 with some minor additions. Then sequester the 'everythng else' using whatever means seem best. Approximately, there will be, by weight, three parts CO2 to two parts methane. The problem is that it is quite espensive to separate CO2 from the rest of the flue gas. With biomass, one does not have to try so hard: Ferment biomass in a digester to form biogasse; separate the methane in the biogasse from everything else; this is known, proven and used technology. The ‘everything else’ is almost completely CO2 with some minor additions. Then sequester the ‘everythng else’ using whatever means seem best.

Approximately, there will be, by weight, three parts CO2 to two parts methane.

]]> By: Martin Hedberg http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25722 Martin Hedberg Fri, 26 Dec 2008 21:21:10 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/25/the-day-clean-coal-died/#comment-25722 Isn't it funny that the coal industry talk so much about CCS as the solution? After all, if CCS is introduced in big scale, they must shut down old coal-fired power? Otherwise it wouldn't help. Has anyone heard the coal industry talking about it? (And of course electricity would be a lot more expensive.) However, one of the reasons they don't talk about Bio-fueled CCS is that they don't own that type of carbon. And the bio-fuel industry don't talk about CCS -since they only emit "green" CO2. Isn’t it funny that the coal industry talk so much about CCS as the solution? After all, if CCS is introduced in big scale, they must shut down old coal-fired power? Otherwise it wouldn’t help. Has anyone heard the coal industry talking about it? (And of course electricity would be a lot more expensive.)
However, one of the reasons they don’t talk about Bio-fueled CCS is that they don’t own that type of carbon.
And the bio-fuel industry don’t talk about CCS -since they only emit “green” CO2.

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