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	<title>Comments on: Is Toyota developing a purely solar-powered car &#8212; or is this a story lost in translation?</title>
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	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:08:43 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-30787</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-30787</guid>
		<description>These solar powered cars only perform or run for a limited distance without the electric energy and for this reason these cars are not being referred to as a resourceful form of transport for daily travelers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These solar powered cars only perform or run for a limited distance without the electric energy and for this reason these cars are not being referred to as a resourceful form of transport for daily travelers.</p>
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		<title>By: Solar Powered Cars</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-29711</link>
		<dc:creator>Solar Powered Cars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 06:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-29711</guid>
		<description>i like your idea of using solar based hybrid cars. it is indeed a good idea and can be used effectively by a number of common people like us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i like your idea of using solar based hybrid cars. it is indeed a good idea and can be used effectively by a number of common people like us.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Wallace</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26149</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 21:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26149</guid>
		<description>The majority of Americans say that we need to start taking significant action to combat GCC now.  Check the Gallup poll data.

But Gallup did not measure individual willingness to make difficult personal changes in lifestyle.

IMO, we should be putting maximal effort into creating solutions that create little or no &quot;discomfort&quot; to the green-leaning adopter.

Wind farms are a good example of a low-personal impact solution.  If sited correctly they create very little to no &quot;visual blight&quot;.  The land owner makes some nice money while giving up only a small portion of his/her land.  The outlets in people&#039;s houses work exactly the same.

Very efficient refrigerators, CFLs that look like &quot;real light bulbs&quot; (and are &quot;made cheap&quot; by subsidies), white painted commercial roofs, ....  Those things contribute to the overall solution and don&#039;t get anyones bloomers in a bunch.

The Volt-concept PHEV is another good example.  Looks like a normal car.  Runs on normal fuel if need be.  Only change is, if you plug it in from time to time you save a lot on your gas bill.

We need fixes now.  Seamless transitions from inefficient to efficient are most likely to reduce atmospheric gas levels.  It&#039;s going to be harder to implement changes that we have to force.  (That goes without saying, doesn&#039;t it?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The majority of Americans say that we need to start taking significant action to combat GCC now.  Check the Gallup poll data.</p>
<p>But Gallup did not measure individual willingness to make difficult personal changes in lifestyle.</p>
<p>IMO, we should be putting maximal effort into creating solutions that create little or no &#8220;discomfort&#8221; to the green-leaning adopter.</p>
<p>Wind farms are a good example of a low-personal impact solution.  If sited correctly they create very little to no &#8220;visual blight&#8221;.  The land owner makes some nice money while giving up only a small portion of his/her land.  The outlets in people&#8217;s houses work exactly the same.</p>
<p>Very efficient refrigerators, CFLs that look like &#8220;real light bulbs&#8221; (and are &#8220;made cheap&#8221; by subsidies), white painted commercial roofs, &#8230;.  Those things contribute to the overall solution and don&#8217;t get anyones bloomers in a bunch.</p>
<p>The Volt-concept PHEV is another good example.  Looks like a normal car.  Runs on normal fuel if need be.  Only change is, if you plug it in from time to time you save a lot on your gas bill.</p>
<p>We need fixes now.  Seamless transitions from inefficient to efficient are most likely to reduce atmospheric gas levels.  It&#8217;s going to be harder to implement changes that we have to force.  (That goes without saying, doesn&#8217;t it?)</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Bullis, Miastrada Company</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26145</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Bullis, Miastrada Company</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26145</guid>
		<description>David Lewis, you said, &quot;I think it can still be said a majority of US citizens do not see the necessity for urgent action on climate.&quot;

This is the heart of the problem.  

I submit that every poorly thought out, costly, and ultimately ineffective course of action taken due to panic will only set back real progress.  The setback will come because US citizens will be ever harder to convince for each subsequent solution that is proposed.

Another problem occurs where promoters sell easy solutions that have very little quantitative effect, but deceive US citizens into thinking that serious adjustments do not have to be made.

It is also reality that real solutions have to be attractive to the whole world if they are to make a sufficient difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Lewis, you said, &#8220;I think it can still be said a majority of US citizens do not see the necessity for urgent action on climate.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is the heart of the problem.  </p>
<p>I submit that every poorly thought out, costly, and ultimately ineffective course of action taken due to panic will only set back real progress.  The setback will come because US citizens will be ever harder to convince for each subsequent solution that is proposed.</p>
<p>Another problem occurs where promoters sell easy solutions that have very little quantitative effect, but deceive US citizens into thinking that serious adjustments do not have to be made.</p>
<p>It is also reality that real solutions have to be attractive to the whole world if they are to make a sufficient difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Wallace</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26144</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26144</guid>
		<description>Jim, try looking at the &quot;looks&quot; issue from the stance of a car salesman.  Think about talking grey-haired old ladies into driving something that looks like it comes from a sci-fi movie.

Then reflect on how much resistance there is to CFLs because the &quot;look funny&quot;.

The greenest solutions are ones that people will actually adopt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, try looking at the &#8220;looks&#8221; issue from the stance of a car salesman.  Think about talking grey-haired old ladies into driving something that looks like it comes from a sci-fi movie.</p>
<p>Then reflect on how much resistance there is to CFLs because the &#8220;look funny&#8221;.</p>
<p>The greenest solutions are ones that people will actually adopt.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Bullis, Miastrada Company</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26143</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Bullis, Miastrada Company</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:22:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26143</guid>
		<description>The real solar car shown with the lead article brings reality to the discussion.  These actually work, but driving them is a feat of extreme athletic endurance.  Only the very young could drive lying down and bend their neck to see out without serious orthopedic damage.  Further, the very low profile but large road area occupied makes these the ultimate in impracticality and unappealing to any real motorist.  No, Toyota is not about to copy this concept.

Still, the Solar Challenge competition has served well as a design experimentation forum and shows possibilities that could be incorporated in real vehicles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real solar car shown with the lead article brings reality to the discussion.  These actually work, but driving them is a feat of extreme athletic endurance.  Only the very young could drive lying down and bend their neck to see out without serious orthopedic damage.  Further, the very low profile but large road area occupied makes these the ultimate in impracticality and unappealing to any real motorist.  No, Toyota is not about to copy this concept.</p>
<p>Still, the Solar Challenge competition has served well as a design experimentation forum and shows possibilities that could be incorporated in real vehicles.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Bullis, Miastrada Company</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26141</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Bullis, Miastrada Company</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26141</guid>
		<description>Bob Wallace at 10:56am,

You make many insightful comments, but I would like to go further with your remark that the &quot;Aptera faces significant looks-related market problems.&quot;

It will ultimately come down to choices where we ultimately rank our ugly options.  For my part I rank ugly from least to most: (1) Aptera, (2) fast trains, (3) slow light rail, (4) city bus, (5) family life in an urban apartment, (6) no electricity, (7) starving, (8) freezing to death.

Actually the Aptera is very attractive to my eye.  But yes, it looks different and that does indeed count for a lot with many if not most people -- at least for now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob Wallace at 10:56am,</p>
<p>You make many insightful comments, but I would like to go further with your remark that the &#8220;Aptera faces significant looks-related market problems.&#8221;</p>
<p>It will ultimately come down to choices where we ultimately rank our ugly options.  For my part I rank ugly from least to most: (1) Aptera, (2) fast trains, (3) slow light rail, (4) city bus, (5) family life in an urban apartment, (6) no electricity, (7) starving, (8) freezing to death.</p>
<p>Actually the Aptera is very attractive to my eye.  But yes, it looks different and that does indeed count for a lot with many if not most people &#8212; at least for now.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick C</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26139</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26139</guid>
		<description>I just found a small solar panel I bought 18 years ago. It could produce 12 volts at 40 mA. It may have cost me $10.00 or $15.00 back then and I tried to use it to charge a sealed lead-acid battery. What I found was that it could loose over 50% of its electrical generating capacity if even the small puffy cumulous clouds covered the sun momentarily. If the angle the panel faced the sun wasn&#039;t correct it would loose around 20% to 30% of its capacity. So when I heard Toyota was building a car that would be charged off of solar power I had to approach it from a state of disbelief. It could only provide about 10% of the total charge the car&#039;s on board batteries at best.

The president of our Houston electric vehicle club just recently purchased a Zap truck with Solar panels and its charger went bad. So for the next 2 weeks it waited in the outdoors and by the time he received his new battery pack charger the car was fully charged from the solar panels. So while it can be possible to charge an EV&#039;s battery pack from solar panels on the car it can&#039;t possibly charge them up quickly enough to provide meaningful range to the vehicle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just found a small solar panel I bought 18 years ago. It could produce 12 volts at 40 mA. It may have cost me $10.00 or $15.00 back then and I tried to use it to charge a sealed lead-acid battery. What I found was that it could loose over 50% of its electrical generating capacity if even the small puffy cumulous clouds covered the sun momentarily. If the angle the panel faced the sun wasn&#8217;t correct it would loose around 20% to 30% of its capacity. So when I heard Toyota was building a car that would be charged off of solar power I had to approach it from a state of disbelief. It could only provide about 10% of the total charge the car&#8217;s on board batteries at best.</p>
<p>The president of our Houston electric vehicle club just recently purchased a Zap truck with Solar panels and its charger went bad. So for the next 2 weeks it waited in the outdoors and by the time he received his new battery pack charger the car was fully charged from the solar panels. So while it can be possible to charge an EV&#8217;s battery pack from solar panels on the car it can&#8217;t possibly charge them up quickly enough to provide meaningful range to the vehicle.</p>
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		<title>By: TomG</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26130</link>
		<dc:creator>TomG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26130</guid>
		<description>Solar panels work best when they are directly facing the sun. But as long as there is light they will work. Park under a street light at night and the solar panel will work, just not at peak efficiency.
Regenerative brakes only work when braking, which is only a very small fraction of the time. Should they be discarded because the vehicle isn&#039;t getting full time usage?
The home roof top panels to recharge the car....if the car isn&#039;t there or it&#039;s batteries are at full charge, I see no reason why they couldn&#039;t tie into the grid. Bonus...
If Toyota can make this cost effective and reliable, it sure sounds like a winner to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solar panels work best when they are directly facing the sun. But as long as there is light they will work. Park under a street light at night and the solar panel will work, just not at peak efficiency.<br />
Regenerative brakes only work when braking, which is only a very small fraction of the time. Should they be discarded because the vehicle isn&#8217;t getting full time usage?<br />
The home roof top panels to recharge the car&#8230;.if the car isn&#8217;t there or it&#8217;s batteries are at full charge, I see no reason why they couldn&#8217;t tie into the grid. Bonus&#8230;<br />
If Toyota can make this cost effective and reliable, it sure sounds like a winner to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Wallace</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26109</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 02:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/03/is-toyota-developing-a-purely-solar-powered-car-or-is-this-a-story-lost-in-translation/#comment-26109</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a big problem with the concept (and a perhaps).  The panels would be mostly horizontal which would be a terrible angle except during the middle of the day in the summer when the sun takes an overhead path.

The &quot;perhaps&quot; comes from an announcement that someone has developed a coating that allows panels to absorb light from all angles with very little reflective loss.  But it has yet to prove itself in practical applications.

Then there&#039;s the &quot;best use&quot; consideration.  Solar panels make power during the day when that power can be sold to the grid at peak prices.  Car batteries can generally be charged at night with less expensive off-peak wind power.  

Additionally there is the problem of power loss once the batteries are full.  Now any power that the panels might supply to the grid is wasted.  To me it makes more sense to spend our panel dollars on peak feed-in and buy back cheap nighttime wind power.

While there might be a small number of people who drive short mileage, live where the sun is high and bright, and can find parking in full sun, it leaves the question if that market segment would support such a vehicle.  In order to recover R&amp;D, etc. these might be very expensive vehicles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a big problem with the concept (and a perhaps).  The panels would be mostly horizontal which would be a terrible angle except during the middle of the day in the summer when the sun takes an overhead path.</p>
<p>The &#8220;perhaps&#8221; comes from an announcement that someone has developed a coating that allows panels to absorb light from all angles with very little reflective loss.  But it has yet to prove itself in practical applications.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the &#8220;best use&#8221; consideration.  Solar panels make power during the day when that power can be sold to the grid at peak prices.  Car batteries can generally be charged at night with less expensive off-peak wind power.  </p>
<p>Additionally there is the problem of power loss once the batteries are full.  Now any power that the panels might supply to the grid is wasted.  To me it makes more sense to spend our panel dollars on peak feed-in and buy back cheap nighttime wind power.</p>
<p>While there might be a small number of people who drive short mileage, live where the sun is high and bright, and can find parking in full sun, it leaves the question if that market segment would support such a vehicle.  In order to recover R&amp;D, etc. these might be very expensive vehicles.</p>
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