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	<title>Comments on: China’s Copenhagen Commitments: A Workable Solution</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/06/china-copenhagen-global-warming-carbon-co2-binding-target-mckinsey/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/06/china-copenhagen-global-warming-carbon-co2-binding-target-mckinsey/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: Gita Kavarana</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/06/china-copenhagen-global-warming-carbon-co2-binding-target-mckinsey/#comment-84319</link>
		<dc:creator>Gita Kavarana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5291#comment-84319</guid>
		<description>Both the article as well some of the responses just go to show that we are never going to crack the climate change problem. 

Lets keep aside the number crunching aside for a minute and look at the core argument (the numbers are only tools to support that stand you have already taken).  What the US or its like-minded countries like Japan and Australia are essentially saying is: 

&quot;We have committed slow murder over the past so mnay years. But you can&#039;t punish us. But you (China, India etc) are going commit murder say, 20 years from now. We can&#039;s allow that and we have to punish you now.&quot; 

Even as it points fingers at China, what do countries like US, UK propose to do? Do they say, no more coal? No, they want to keep their coal power plants and they come up even more gizmos like capturing carbon and storiing it somewhere deep down. Put it out of sight and hope that the problem will go away. And, if the carbon leaks say 50 years from now, the architects of this brilliant scheme won&#039;t be around to answer for it.

Do the US citizens say, No more cars? No they say we want to keep our cars and we will grow the fuel for it. Never mind if the land to grow the fuel will displace food crops. All the corn in the US can only meet 12% of its current petrol use.

So, the rich want to keep the cake and eat it too. Don&#039;t blame the Chinese cake for giving you stomachache.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both the article as well some of the responses just go to show that we are never going to crack the climate change problem. </p>
<p>Lets keep aside the number crunching aside for a minute and look at the core argument (the numbers are only tools to support that stand you have already taken).  What the US or its like-minded countries like Japan and Australia are essentially saying is: </p>
<p>&#8220;We have committed slow murder over the past so mnay years. But you can&#8217;t punish us. But you (China, India etc) are going commit murder say, 20 years from now. We can&#8217;s allow that and we have to punish you now.&#8221; </p>
<p>Even as it points fingers at China, what do countries like US, UK propose to do? Do they say, no more coal? No, they want to keep their coal power plants and they come up even more gizmos like capturing carbon and storiing it somewhere deep down. Put it out of sight and hope that the problem will go away. And, if the carbon leaks say 50 years from now, the architects of this brilliant scheme won&#8217;t be around to answer for it.</p>
<p>Do the US citizens say, No more cars? No they say we want to keep our cars and we will grow the fuel for it. Never mind if the land to grow the fuel will displace food crops. All the corn in the US can only meet 12% of its current petrol use.</p>
<p>So, the rich want to keep the cake and eat it too. Don&#8217;t blame the Chinese cake for giving you stomachache.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Huggan</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/06/china-copenhagen-global-warming-carbon-co2-binding-target-mckinsey/#comment-37999</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Huggan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5291#comment-37999</guid>
		<description>I meant intensifying agriculture in 1980s and was specifically thinking of Africa, which hasn&#039;t done so, following China&#039;s 45 year blueprint.  With patent sharing and microfinance and cellphones no doubt development will be faster (lower footprint) even without EE gains.  My thesis is the world was shocked by China&#039;s 2000s carbon footprint increase.  Focusing on China as the problem instead of China as a prototype to solve an even bigger problem (future China carbon footprint growth rates among the future developing world), just leaves us with the same problems in 2030, presumably in a world that looks very different from space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant intensifying agriculture in 1980s and was specifically thinking of Africa, which hasn&#8217;t done so, following China&#8217;s 45 year blueprint.  With patent sharing and microfinance and cellphones no doubt development will be faster (lower footprint) even without EE gains.  My thesis is the world was shocked by China&#8217;s 2000s carbon footprint increase.  Focusing on China as the problem instead of China as a prototype to solve an even bigger problem (future China carbon footprint growth rates among the future developing world), just leaves us with the same problems in 2030, presumably in a world that looks very different from space.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Huggan</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/06/china-copenhagen-global-warming-carbon-co2-binding-target-mckinsey/#comment-37993</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Huggan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 07:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5291#comment-37993</guid>
		<description>It doesn&#039;t seem like enough, capping at 2030.  Even though it is candidly stated as a starting point for China that would hopefully be improved over the next two decades, it sends a signal to the 8x as many future Chinas that it is okay to be slow.  The guestimate is an 80% reduction of carbon emissions in the developed world in 3-5 decades to have a chance at keeping AGW below +2C (melted Arctic probably means +2C is too much).  Might be trivial if we&#039;ve mastered cheap materials scienced or safe bioteched carbon scrubbers, and if there aren&#039;t other non-CO2 feedbacks that have come into play.  If 2049 doesn&#039;t yield magic, there will have been 9 billion or so more developing world people who have or soon will have achieved a developed world lifestyle.  Experience to date suggests a bottom billion are chronically impoverished but the rest learn how to emit carbon.

If we are hoping to get developed world emissions down 1/5 what they are now, yet suggesting a model of growth that basically says the developing world has 45 years from intensifying industry (China did this in the 1980s and it is at least a precursor to China&#039;s 1990s boom) until it has to cap emissions...
The math is calculus.  Each subsequent developing country has to use less carbon.  This is facilitated by profitable energy efficency gains, but too slowly.  For example China competes with Bangladesh for labour.  Bangladesh will want the 45 years of immunity but to maintain hope of a predictable 1990 or so climate, may only have 10 years before mandated to cap emissions.  In effect, just like we screwed over the developing world by (unknowingly until 1991) emitting all the early CO2, Beijing would be screwing over Lagos by emitting all the middle CO2.
What is the Dept of Homeland Security&#039;s contingency plan for 4 billion people losing all their Himalayan meltwater at once?  The unemployment alone would &quot;Iraq&quot; Chinese infrastructures; they will have learned how to protest.  All goods in our 2050 wired world originating from SE Asia would cease to flow.
4 billion people will go from making $100000 a year to maybe $10000.  A $360T annual loss.  Much less in today&#039;s dollars but at least not worthless like in 2008.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t seem like enough, capping at 2030.  Even though it is candidly stated as a starting point for China that would hopefully be improved over the next two decades, it sends a signal to the 8x as many future Chinas that it is okay to be slow.  The guestimate is an 80% reduction of carbon emissions in the developed world in 3-5 decades to have a chance at keeping AGW below +2C (melted Arctic probably means +2C is too much).  Might be trivial if we&#8217;ve mastered cheap materials scienced or safe bioteched carbon scrubbers, and if there aren&#8217;t other non-CO2 feedbacks that have come into play.  If 2049 doesn&#8217;t yield magic, there will have been 9 billion or so more developing world people who have or soon will have achieved a developed world lifestyle.  Experience to date suggests a bottom billion are chronically impoverished but the rest learn how to emit carbon.</p>
<p>If we are hoping to get developed world emissions down 1/5 what they are now, yet suggesting a model of growth that basically says the developing world has 45 years from intensifying industry (China did this in the 1980s and it is at least a precursor to China&#8217;s 1990s boom) until it has to cap emissions&#8230;<br />
The math is calculus.  Each subsequent developing country has to use less carbon.  This is facilitated by profitable energy efficency gains, but too slowly.  For example China competes with Bangladesh for labour.  Bangladesh will want the 45 years of immunity but to maintain hope of a predictable 1990 or so climate, may only have 10 years before mandated to cap emissions.  In effect, just like we screwed over the developing world by (unknowingly until 1991) emitting all the early CO2, Beijing would be screwing over Lagos by emitting all the middle CO2.<br />
What is the Dept of Homeland Security&#8217;s contingency plan for 4 billion people losing all their Himalayan meltwater at once?  The unemployment alone would &#8220;Iraq&#8221; Chinese infrastructures; they will have learned how to protest.  All goods in our 2050 wired world originating from SE Asia would cease to flow.<br />
4 billion people will go from making $100000 a year to maybe $10000.  A $360T annual loss.  Much less in today&#8217;s dollars but at least not worthless like in 2008.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/06/china-copenhagen-global-warming-carbon-co2-binding-target-mckinsey/#comment-37967</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 05:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5291#comment-37967</guid>
		<description>Sasparilla, yes, but no: 

&quot;Fairness of per person emissions, in the sense that the Western world setup our CO2 levels during their industrialization - matters when negotiating with countries going through their industrialization now.&quot;  

Just to be difficult, what&#039;s so great about the western model of indusrialization nowadays?  Has anyone been on the freeway in L.A. lately?  If I felt free to do so, I&#039;d ask the Beijing guys to rise above that model: why ruin such a beautiful land, and why not show the world how it can be done?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sasparilla, yes, but no: </p>
<p>&#8220;Fairness of per person emissions, in the sense that the Western world setup our CO2 levels during their industrialization &#8211; matters when negotiating with countries going through their industrialization now.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Just to be difficult, what&#8217;s so great about the western model of indusrialization nowadays?  Has anyone been on the freeway in L.A. lately?  If I felt free to do so, I&#8217;d ask the Beijing guys to rise above that model: why ruin such a beautiful land, and why not show the world how it can be done?</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/06/china-copenhagen-global-warming-carbon-co2-binding-target-mckinsey/#comment-37576</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5291#comment-37576</guid>
		<description>@Tim R I had the per capita data in the first draft of this post which Joe reviewed. In my subsequent redraft, I took out the paragraph where it was discussed simply to shorten the post and on the assumption that most readers of this blog were well aware of the per capita differences.  It is one reason the differences between what is expected from China and what is expected from the US are so great. I would be happy to do another post devoted solely to the strengths and weaknesses of China&#039;s per capita emissions argument.

In any event, I certainly didn&#039;t mean to hide the ball, but perhaps I am too close to the China issue to appreciate what is common knowledge among other climate change cognoscenti. Had I been writing for the popular press, I certainly would have included the per capita numbers. I don&#039;t think Joe was aware of my removal of the per capita paragraph, so whatever &quot;blame&quot; there is here is solely mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tim R I had the per capita data in the first draft of this post which Joe reviewed. In my subsequent redraft, I took out the paragraph where it was discussed simply to shorten the post and on the assumption that most readers of this blog were well aware of the per capita differences.  It is one reason the differences between what is expected from China and what is expected from the US are so great. I would be happy to do another post devoted solely to the strengths and weaknesses of China&#8217;s per capita emissions argument.</p>
<p>In any event, I certainly didn&#8217;t mean to hide the ball, but perhaps I am too close to the China issue to appreciate what is common knowledge among other climate change cognoscenti. Had I been writing for the popular press, I certainly would have included the per capita numbers. I don&#8217;t think Joe was aware of my removal of the per capita paragraph, so whatever &#8220;blame&#8221; there is here is solely mine.</p>
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		<title>By: Sasparilla</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/06/china-copenhagen-global-warming-carbon-co2-binding-target-mckinsey/#comment-37524</link>
		<dc:creator>Sasparilla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5291#comment-37524</guid>
		<description>The Chinese positions that we&#039;ve seen so far are quite worrisome - as there wasn&#039;t alot of discussion that the Chinese just might not go for curbing greenhouse gas emissions due to political issues.  I can only hope that the Chinese are open to something like McKinsey lays out (despite what we&#039;ve seen from them so far), the alternative if they don&#039;t, is unbearable to even think about.

As Tim R. mentions above, fairness of per person emissions, in the sense that the Western world setup our CO2 levels during their industrialization - matters when negotiating with countries going through their industrialization now.  Something close to contract and convergence will be the model we&#039;ll probably end up needing to follow (to get the developing world to buy in) and that won&#039;t be an easy sell in our sound bite political system here in the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Chinese positions that we&#8217;ve seen so far are quite worrisome &#8211; as there wasn&#8217;t alot of discussion that the Chinese just might not go for curbing greenhouse gas emissions due to political issues.  I can only hope that the Chinese are open to something like McKinsey lays out (despite what we&#8217;ve seen from them so far), the alternative if they don&#8217;t, is unbearable to even think about.</p>
<p>As Tim R. mentions above, fairness of per person emissions, in the sense that the Western world setup our CO2 levels during their industrialization &#8211; matters when negotiating with countries going through their industrialization now.  Something close to contract and convergence will be the model we&#8217;ll probably end up needing to follow (to get the developing world to buy in) and that won&#8217;t be an easy sell in our sound bite political system here in the US.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim R.</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/06/china-copenhagen-global-warming-carbon-co2-binding-target-mckinsey/#comment-37518</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5291#comment-37518</guid>
		<description>I largely agree with the authors points, but there are two problems with the post. The lesser problem first, I disagree with the idea of soft-pedaling the threat of climate tariffs. China, and all countries need to understand that there are two paths post-Copenhagen. A country can be a part of the deal or a country can remain outside the framework and see its imports forever taxed an amount equal to the economic gain it achieves from dirty energy. It is very important that the whole world understands the big stick lurking in the background.  That is how business interests otherwise opposed to a Copenhagen deal will become advocates for participation before December. The Republicans in the U.S. Senate and the Chamber of Commerce and their ilk need to understand that the U.S. might be subject to such climate tariffs if we don&#039;t ratify a Copenhagen Protocol.

But there is a larger problem with the post. At this point in the debate, it is simply irresponsible to refrain from casting emissions data using per capita numbers. Nearly every U.S. citizen that follows the news now believes that China is the world&#039;s biggest climate polluter. Of course they want strong binding commitments on the Chinese. What Americans blissfully ignore, including the author here on Climate Progress, is that Americans are responsible for about five times more climate emissions per person than the Chinese (about 20 times more than the Indians.)

Even after the 2030 targets outlined above are met, U.S. citizens will still be allowed roughly twice the emissions that a Chinese citizen will. How does the Chinese leadership sell that to its population? Unless people in this country understand the fundamental imbalance we begin with, it will be difficult to understand Chinese reluctance to enshrine that imbalance in a binding international treaty.

Please Climate Progress, subject yourself to the same kind of strict standards you hold out for journalists everywhere and maintain the intellectual honesty of always reporting per capita emissions when comparing international emissions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I largely agree with the authors points, but there are two problems with the post. The lesser problem first, I disagree with the idea of soft-pedaling the threat of climate tariffs. China, and all countries need to understand that there are two paths post-Copenhagen. A country can be a part of the deal or a country can remain outside the framework and see its imports forever taxed an amount equal to the economic gain it achieves from dirty energy. It is very important that the whole world understands the big stick lurking in the background.  That is how business interests otherwise opposed to a Copenhagen deal will become advocates for participation before December. The Republicans in the U.S. Senate and the Chamber of Commerce and their ilk need to understand that the U.S. might be subject to such climate tariffs if we don&#8217;t ratify a Copenhagen Protocol.</p>
<p>But there is a larger problem with the post. At this point in the debate, it is simply irresponsible to refrain from casting emissions data using per capita numbers. Nearly every U.S. citizen that follows the news now believes that China is the world&#8217;s biggest climate polluter. Of course they want strong binding commitments on the Chinese. What Americans blissfully ignore, including the author here on Climate Progress, is that Americans are responsible for about five times more climate emissions per person than the Chinese (about 20 times more than the Indians.)</p>
<p>Even after the 2030 targets outlined above are met, U.S. citizens will still be allowed roughly twice the emissions that a Chinese citizen will. How does the Chinese leadership sell that to its population? Unless people in this country understand the fundamental imbalance we begin with, it will be difficult to understand Chinese reluctance to enshrine that imbalance in a binding international treaty.</p>
<p>Please Climate Progress, subject yourself to the same kind of strict standards you hold out for journalists everywhere and maintain the intellectual honesty of always reporting per capita emissions when comparing international emissions.</p>
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