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	<title>Comments on: Where there is no vision, the people perish 2</title>
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		<title>By: Bill Becker</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/23/where-there-is-no-vision-the-people-perish-2/#comment-43117</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5839#comment-43117</guid>
		<description>John, thanks for the suggestions and link. No, we hadn&#039;t been planning to feed into the State of the World Forum, but we should.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, thanks for the suggestions and link. No, we hadn&#8217;t been planning to feed into the State of the World Forum, but we should.</p>
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		<title>By: John Robert</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/23/where-there-is-no-vision-the-people-perish-2/#comment-41597</link>
		<dc:creator>John Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5839#comment-41597</guid>
		<description>Great series, Bill Becker. I&#039;m glad to hear some are looking below all the technological fixes to see what values and dreams will help us move beyond the deadly cycle of cynicism and sameness. 
Are you collecting visions for the 2009 State of the World Forum? I&#039;m glad to see that this conference is organized around a wholistic vision. If ecology teaches us nothing else, it is that everything is intertwined: our economics, our technology, our education, our science, our ethics, our art, our understanding of ourselves are all intimately, inextricably connected. We need a new dream beyond having more stuff, even beyond the best technological fix.
I dream of an America renaissance. A land in which the good life is defined by deeper and more generous values -- respect, appreciation, hope, honesty, and celebration -- not by having more things. I dream of an America in which art, learning, children, and spiritual awareness are more important in public conversation and private action than economic growth and military prowess. I dream of American energy streaming home from our 732 (and growing) foreign military bases and posts, with a can-do attitude informed by those deeper values.
In other words, I dream of a new understanding and practice of being human. At the end of Al Gore&#039;s TED talk presentation posted April 2008, he says We need a new consciousness. 
I think that&#039;s how deep our visioning has to go.
As for examples of visioning, but not solely about a post carbon future, I recommend the eco-spiritual international township in South India called Auroville. It just celebrated its 40th birthday and is thriving. One of the speakers for the World Forum, Ervin Laszlo, was recently a member of Auroville&#039;s International Advisory Council. It&#039;s an incredibly vibrant place. I lived there between 2006 and 2008. I think some of the best visioners there are an architectural group called dreamcatchers. I watched a presentation that dreamcatchers David and Mona gave on the future of the city that was stunning, visionary in so many senses of the word. Here&#039;s a link to another dreamcatcher project: http://www.auroville.org/thecity/dream_space.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great series, Bill Becker. I&#8217;m glad to hear some are looking below all the technological fixes to see what values and dreams will help us move beyond the deadly cycle of cynicism and sameness.<br />
Are you collecting visions for the 2009 State of the World Forum? I&#8217;m glad to see that this conference is organized around a wholistic vision. If ecology teaches us nothing else, it is that everything is intertwined: our economics, our technology, our education, our science, our ethics, our art, our understanding of ourselves are all intimately, inextricably connected. We need a new dream beyond having more stuff, even beyond the best technological fix.<br />
I dream of an America renaissance. A land in which the good life is defined by deeper and more generous values &#8212; respect, appreciation, hope, honesty, and celebration &#8212; not by having more things. I dream of an America in which art, learning, children, and spiritual awareness are more important in public conversation and private action than economic growth and military prowess. I dream of American energy streaming home from our 732 (and growing) foreign military bases and posts, with a can-do attitude informed by those deeper values.<br />
In other words, I dream of a new understanding and practice of being human. At the end of Al Gore&#8217;s TED talk presentation posted April 2008, he says We need a new consciousness.<br />
I think that&#8217;s how deep our visioning has to go.<br />
As for examples of visioning, but not solely about a post carbon future, I recommend the eco-spiritual international township in South India called Auroville. It just celebrated its 40th birthday and is thriving. One of the speakers for the World Forum, Ervin Laszlo, was recently a member of Auroville&#8217;s International Advisory Council. It&#8217;s an incredibly vibrant place. I lived there between 2006 and 2008. I think some of the best visioners there are an architectural group called dreamcatchers. I watched a presentation that dreamcatchers David and Mona gave on the future of the city that was stunning, visionary in so many senses of the word. Here&#8217;s a link to another dreamcatcher project: <a href="http://www.auroville.org/thecity/dream_space.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.auroville.org/thecity/dream_space.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Asteroid Miner</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/23/where-there-is-no-vision-the-people-perish-2/#comment-41380</link>
		<dc:creator>Asteroid Miner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5839#comment-41380</guid>
		<description>The above suggestions are like the answer car owners get when they ask how to
 make their cars last longer:  &quot;Wash and wax it.&quot;   Meaningless.   Pointless.
The truthful answer is:  &quot;We rigged it so you can&#039;t do that.&quot;

Meaningful action the common person can take:  Get a new attitude on nuclear
 power because nuclear power is King Coal&#039;s only meaningful competitor.   
Every time you dis nuclear, you are working for the coal industry and shooting yourself in the foot.   What the coal companies know that most people don&#039;t:

As long as you keep messing around with wind, solar, geothermal and wave power, the coal industry is safe.   There is no way wind, solar, geothermal and wave power can replace coal, and they know it.   Hydrogen fusion could, if it worked.   Hydrogen fusion has been &quot;hopeful&quot; for half a century so far.   I don&#039;t expect that to change any time soon.   

If you quit being afraid of nuclear, the coal industry is doomed.   Every time you argue in favor of wind, solar, geothermal and wave power, or against nuclear, King Coal is happy.   ONLY nuclear power can put coal out of business.   Nuclear power HAS put coal out of business in France.   France uses 30 year old American technology.   So here is the deal:  Keep being afraid of all things nuclear and die either when [not if] civilization collapses or when H2S comes out of the ocean and Homo &quot;Sapiens&quot; goes extinct.   OR: Get over your paranoia and kick the coal habit and live.   Which do you choose?   I put quotation marks around &quot;Sapiens&quot; because it is not clear that most of us have enough brains to avoid extinction when it is clearly predicted and the safe path has been pointed out.   Nuclear is the safe path.

PS:  Nuclear is the cheapest and safest source of electricity.   Nuclear life cycle CO2 output is the lowest per kilowatt hour because it takes a huge number of windmills or solar collectors or wave machines or whatever to produce the same power as a nuclear power plant.   All of those windmills or whatever have manufacturing processes that make CO2.   Hydro power requires an enormous amount of concrete.   The first step in making concrete is heating limestone to drive off the CO2.   That is one of the sources of CO2 from hydro power.   The price for electricity for the various sources of power include the total life cycle costs.   The cost to build the reactor is not much different from the cost to build a coal fired power plant and the money comes from the same source.   See the next post of mine.   Whoever would pay for the reactor is the same person who would pay for the coal burner.   LOOK at the price for the electricity.   It is the total life cycle cost.   Nuclear is the cheapest and the only full time replacement for coal.   Nuclear power would be much cheaper than it is if nuclear were allowed to be as unsafe as the other sources of power.   Nuclear power plants are self-insured.   Tax money is NOT involved and would not be mentioned if it were not for the civil disturbances caused by coal company shills, alias protesters.   The nuclear industry needs and deserves protection from people who are obviously very misinformed.   When tax money is mentioned with respect to nuclear power, the money is the extra money that is wasted because of pointless protests.

I DO NOT work for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.   I am a retired Department of the Army scientist and engineer.   I have never worked for the nuclear power industry.

There is NO SUCH THING as nuclear waste because nuclear fuel is recyclable.   There is fuel that is being wasted for political reasons and because the coal industry has driven you paranoid.   The coal industry&#039;s reason for doing so is the $100 Billion per year cash flow they receive as long as you remain afraid of nuclear.   If you remain afraid of nuclear and prevent the conversion from coal to nuclear, we all die.   The cure is for you to go to start acting like the French people with respect to nuclear power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The above suggestions are like the answer car owners get when they ask how to<br />
 make their cars last longer:  &#8220;Wash and wax it.&#8221;   Meaningless.   Pointless.<br />
The truthful answer is:  &#8220;We rigged it so you can&#8217;t do that.&#8221;</p>
<p>Meaningful action the common person can take:  Get a new attitude on nuclear<br />
 power because nuclear power is King Coal&#8217;s only meaningful competitor.<br />
Every time you dis nuclear, you are working for the coal industry and shooting yourself in the foot.   What the coal companies know that most people don&#8217;t:</p>
<p>As long as you keep messing around with wind, solar, geothermal and wave power, the coal industry is safe.   There is no way wind, solar, geothermal and wave power can replace coal, and they know it.   Hydrogen fusion could, if it worked.   Hydrogen fusion has been &#8220;hopeful&#8221; for half a century so far.   I don&#8217;t expect that to change any time soon.   </p>
<p>If you quit being afraid of nuclear, the coal industry is doomed.   Every time you argue in favor of wind, solar, geothermal and wave power, or against nuclear, King Coal is happy.   ONLY nuclear power can put coal out of business.   Nuclear power HAS put coal out of business in France.   France uses 30 year old American technology.   So here is the deal:  Keep being afraid of all things nuclear and die either when [not if] civilization collapses or when H2S comes out of the ocean and Homo &#8220;Sapiens&#8221; goes extinct.   OR: Get over your paranoia and kick the coal habit and live.   Which do you choose?   I put quotation marks around &#8220;Sapiens&#8221; because it is not clear that most of us have enough brains to avoid extinction when it is clearly predicted and the safe path has been pointed out.   Nuclear is the safe path.</p>
<p>PS:  Nuclear is the cheapest and safest source of electricity.   Nuclear life cycle CO2 output is the lowest per kilowatt hour because it takes a huge number of windmills or solar collectors or wave machines or whatever to produce the same power as a nuclear power plant.   All of those windmills or whatever have manufacturing processes that make CO2.   Hydro power requires an enormous amount of concrete.   The first step in making concrete is heating limestone to drive off the CO2.   That is one of the sources of CO2 from hydro power.   The price for electricity for the various sources of power include the total life cycle costs.   The cost to build the reactor is not much different from the cost to build a coal fired power plant and the money comes from the same source.   See the next post of mine.   Whoever would pay for the reactor is the same person who would pay for the coal burner.   LOOK at the price for the electricity.   It is the total life cycle cost.   Nuclear is the cheapest and the only full time replacement for coal.   Nuclear power would be much cheaper than it is if nuclear were allowed to be as unsafe as the other sources of power.   Nuclear power plants are self-insured.   Tax money is NOT involved and would not be mentioned if it were not for the civil disturbances caused by coal company shills, alias protesters.   The nuclear industry needs and deserves protection from people who are obviously very misinformed.   When tax money is mentioned with respect to nuclear power, the money is the extra money that is wasted because of pointless protests.</p>
<p>I DO NOT work for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.   I am a retired Department of the Army scientist and engineer.   I have never worked for the nuclear power industry.</p>
<p>There is NO SUCH THING as nuclear waste because nuclear fuel is recyclable.   There is fuel that is being wasted for political reasons and because the coal industry has driven you paranoid.   The coal industry&#8217;s reason for doing so is the $100 Billion per year cash flow they receive as long as you remain afraid of nuclear.   If you remain afraid of nuclear and prevent the conversion from coal to nuclear, we all die.   The cure is for you to go to start acting like the French people with respect to nuclear power.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve H</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/23/where-there-is-no-vision-the-people-perish-2/#comment-41207</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5839#comment-41207</guid>
		<description>&quot; In the bargain, each participating community would become a laboratory and demonstration project for all the others.&quot;

I know way too much evolutionary behavioral psychology for own good, but this is the MOST important statement in Part 2.  The biggest hurdle that we face in the US right now is we don&#039;t have a good model for a sustainable city.  This means that nobody has the exposure needed for sustainable communities to propagate.  The evolution of group behaviors comes into play at this point, and the efficient mechanism for the propagation of a better behavior is for one distinct group to adopt it in such a manner that the other groups they interact with will recognize the novel behavior and be able to attribute the successes of that group to this behavior (warranted or not.)  To really get this going, we will need the help of a top-down initiative to redevelop existing cities into sustainable cities.  That said, these cities must also be heavily invested in its community organizations such that they are willing to play a role in spreading the sustainability message.  We know darn well that local governments are going to be hesitant, rightfully so, to try and demand sustainability.  However, they should demand green building codes, an enabling infrastructure, and incentives for adoption of sustainable behaviors.  Once we have in place example sustainable communities, it will come easier to others.  Also, within the example community, I think that sustainable neighborhoods will be vital to the propagation of sustainability to other parts of the community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; In the bargain, each participating community would become a laboratory and demonstration project for all the others.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know way too much evolutionary behavioral psychology for own good, but this is the MOST important statement in Part 2.  The biggest hurdle that we face in the US right now is we don&#8217;t have a good model for a sustainable city.  This means that nobody has the exposure needed for sustainable communities to propagate.  The evolution of group behaviors comes into play at this point, and the efficient mechanism for the propagation of a better behavior is for one distinct group to adopt it in such a manner that the other groups they interact with will recognize the novel behavior and be able to attribute the successes of that group to this behavior (warranted or not.)  To really get this going, we will need the help of a top-down initiative to redevelop existing cities into sustainable cities.  That said, these cities must also be heavily invested in its community organizations such that they are willing to play a role in spreading the sustainability message.  We know darn well that local governments are going to be hesitant, rightfully so, to try and demand sustainability.  However, they should demand green building codes, an enabling infrastructure, and incentives for adoption of sustainable behaviors.  Once we have in place example sustainable communities, it will come easier to others.  Also, within the example community, I think that sustainable neighborhoods will be vital to the propagation of sustainability to other parts of the community.</p>
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		<title>By: paulm</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/23/where-there-is-no-vision-the-people-perish-2/#comment-41176</link>
		<dc:creator>paulm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=5839#comment-41176</guid>
		<description>Britain, a forward looking green nation? just did its budget. 

On review all the oil left under its jurisdiction is going to be extracted. I hope BO has the steel to overcome this tendency.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
It’s a so-called green Budget, but with a coating of crude oil
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/budget/article6150867.ece
....
 The tax concessions for the North Sea oil and gas industry are likely to dwarf any of the green incentives.

The Government said that it wanted to ensure the extraction of an extra two billion barrels of oil that would otherwise be left under the seabed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Britain, a forward looking green nation? just did its budget. </p>
<p>On review all the oil left under its jurisdiction is going to be extracted. I hope BO has the steel to overcome this tendency.</p>
<blockquote><p>
It’s a so-called green Budget, but with a coating of crude oil<br />
<a href="http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/budget/article6150867.ece" rel="nofollow">http://business.timesonline.co.uk/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>tol/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>business/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>economics/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>budget/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>article6150867.ece</a><br />
&#8230;.<br />
 The tax concessions for the North Sea oil and gas industry are likely to dwarf any of the green incentives.</p>
<p>The Government said that it wanted to ensure the extraction of an extra two billion barrels of oil that would otherwise be left under the seabed.</p></blockquote>
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