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	<title>Comments on: Waxman whacks Gingrich upside the head &#8212; with the help of some quotes from Climate Progress</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: MarkB</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/#comment-42699</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6024#comment-42699</guid>
		<description>Gingrich&#039;s massive flip flop isn&#039;t surprising.  Others like McCain have been showing similar tendencies.  It seems that some of these Republicans are changing their position because:

1.  They are no longer in power.

2.  They want to get back in power.

3.  They feel this is an issue they can gain politically with by scaring the American public.  They desperately want to get a political victory against Obama, which is running a very effective administration so far, and they see this as a way to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gingrich&#8217;s massive flip flop isn&#8217;t surprising.  Others like McCain have been showing similar tendencies.  It seems that some of these Republicans are changing their position because:</p>
<p>1.  They are no longer in power.</p>
<p>2.  They want to get back in power.</p>
<p>3.  They feel this is an issue they can gain politically with by scaring the American public.  They desperately want to get a political victory against Obama, which is running a very effective administration so far, and they see this as a way to do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Greene</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/#comment-42684</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6024#comment-42684</guid>
		<description>Thank you Steve Bloom.  I will get to reading all those links this week.  Ocean acidification and PH levels is like a foreign language to me at this point.  Much to learn!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Steve Bloom.  I will get to reading all those links this week.  Ocean acidification and PH levels is like a foreign language to me at this point.  Much to learn!</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Forrester</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/#comment-42664</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Forrester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6024#comment-42664</guid>
		<description>Darth and Joe, the Bakken formation is an oil play in North Dakota and Saskatchewan. The confusion arises because the oil reservoir is shale rather than the more normal sandstone or limestone reservoirs. It is different from &quot;Oil Shale&quot; in that it is oil in the shale rather than kerogen which is present in &quot;Oil shale&quot; and must be converted thermo-chemically into oil.

There is a problem in recovering oil from shale reservoirs since even though the oil is present in large quantities the permeability of the reservoir makes it very difficult to extract.

Recent advances in horizontal drilling and &quot;fracing&quot; are allowing more of this oil to be produced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darth and Joe, the Bakken formation is an oil play in North Dakota and Saskatchewan. The confusion arises because the oil reservoir is shale rather than the more normal sandstone or limestone reservoirs. It is different from &#8220;Oil Shale&#8221; in that it is oil in the shale rather than kerogen which is present in &#8220;Oil shale&#8221; and must be converted thermo-chemically into oil.</p>
<p>There is a problem in recovering oil from shale reservoirs since even though the oil is present in large quantities the permeability of the reservoir makes it very difficult to extract.</p>
<p>Recent advances in horizontal drilling and &#8220;fracing&#8221; are allowing more of this oil to be produced.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Covert</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/#comment-42461</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Covert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 04:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6024#comment-42461</guid>
		<description>So Newt was for Cap and Trade before he was against it. Nice!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Newt was for Cap and Trade before he was against it. Nice!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bloom</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/#comment-42428</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bloom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 02:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6024#comment-42428</guid>
		<description>I have a multi-link post in moderation, Joe.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a multi-link post in moderation, Joe.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bloom</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/#comment-42427</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bloom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 02:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6024#comment-42427</guid>
		<description>Will, the Caldeira and Wickett paper (public copy &lt;a href=&quot;http://pangea.stanford.edu/research/Oceans/GES205/Caldeira_Science_Anthropogenic%20Carbon%20and%20ocean%20pH.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;) is six years old, and most of the research on the effects of acidification has been conducted subsequently.  See &lt;a href=&quot;http://oceanacidification.wordpress.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.climateshifts.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; for the up-to-date science.

That said, the paper remains useful for its neat summary of how the chemistry works:

&quot;When a CO2 change occurs over a short time interval (that is, less than about 10^4 yr), ocean pH is relatively sensitive to added CO2.  However, when a CO2 change occurs over a long time interval (longer than about 10^5 yr), ocean chemistry is buffered by interactions with carbonate minerals, thereby reducing sensitivity to pH changes.

&quot;Based on the record of atmospheric CO2 levels over the past 300 Myr and our geochemical model, there is no evidence that ocean pH was more than 0.6 units lower than today.  Our general circulation model results indicate that continued release of fossil-fuel CO2 into the atmosphere could lead to a pH reduction of 0.7 units.  We conclude that unabated CO2 emissions over the coming centuries may produce changes in ocean pH that are greater than any experienced in the past 300 Myr, with the possible exception of those resulting from rare, catastrophic events in Earth’s history.&quot;

(See &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/oceanography/faculty/zeebe_files/Publications/RidgwellZeebeEPSL05.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; paper for a more detailed discussion of the chemistry.)

Bear in mind that pH is a measure of the balance of negative and positive ions and *not* the quantity of ions, which is why it can and has stayed close to (slightly positive) present levels regardless of atmospheric CO2 levels (so long as the latter hasn&#039;t changed too quickly).  But of course it is changing much too quickly.  

As the paper says, other than a few brief catastrophic events (when marine life was hammered by pulses of CO2 and CO2-generating methane), variation in CO2 levels has had little connection to pH.  Doubtless Newt would be interested to know that one of those catastrophic events (the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-Permian_extinction&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;end-Permian&lt;/a&gt;) was bad enough to wipe out the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/cnidaria/tabulata.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;then-existing corals&lt;/a&gt;, although after ten million years or so &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/cnidaria/scleractinia.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the ones we have now&lt;/a&gt; evolved to take their place.
 
So Newt is comprehensively wrong on this as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, the Caldeira and Wickett paper (public copy <a href="http://pangea.stanford.edu/research/Oceans/GES205/Caldeira_Science_Anthropogenic%20Carbon%20and%20ocean%20pH.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>) is six years old, and most of the research on the effects of acidification has been conducted subsequently.  See <a href="http://oceanacidification.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://www.climateshifts.org/" rel="nofollow">here</a> for the up-to-date science.</p>
<p>That said, the paper remains useful for its neat summary of how the chemistry works:</p>
<p>&#8220;When a CO2 change occurs over a short time interval (that is, less than about 10^4 yr), ocean pH is relatively sensitive to added CO2.  However, when a CO2 change occurs over a long time interval (longer than about 10^5 yr), ocean chemistry is buffered by interactions with carbonate minerals, thereby reducing sensitivity to pH changes.</p>
<p>&#8220;Based on the record of atmospheric CO2 levels over the past 300 Myr and our geochemical model, there is no evidence that ocean pH was more than 0.6 units lower than today.  Our general circulation model results indicate that continued release of fossil-fuel CO2 into the atmosphere could lead to a pH reduction of 0.7 units.  We conclude that unabated CO2 emissions over the coming centuries may produce changes in ocean pH that are greater than any experienced in the past 300 Myr, with the possible exception of those resulting from rare, catastrophic events in Earth’s history.&#8221;</p>
<p>(See <a href="http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/oceanography/faculty/zeebe_files/Publications/RidgwellZeebeEPSL05.pdf" rel="nofollow">this</a> paper for a more detailed discussion of the chemistry.)</p>
<p>Bear in mind that pH is a measure of the balance of negative and positive ions and *not* the quantity of ions, which is why it can and has stayed close to (slightly positive) present levels regardless of atmospheric CO2 levels (so long as the latter hasn&#8217;t changed too quickly).  But of course it is changing much too quickly.  </p>
<p>As the paper says, other than a few brief catastrophic events (when marine life was hammered by pulses of CO2 and CO2-generating methane), variation in CO2 levels has had little connection to pH.  Doubtless Newt would be interested to know that one of those catastrophic events (the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-Permian_extinction" rel="nofollow">end-Permian</a>) was bad enough to wipe out the <a href="http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/cnidaria/tabulata.html" rel="nofollow">then-existing corals</a>, although after ten million years or so <a href="http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/cnidaria/scleractinia.html" rel="nofollow">the ones we have now</a> evolved to take their place.</p>
<p>So Newt is comprehensively wrong on this as well.</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/#comment-42311</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6024#comment-42311</guid>
		<description>Will Greene --- You are on-base.  Oceran acidification is to be taken as a most serious risk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will Greene &#8212; You are on-base.  Oceran acidification is to be taken as a most serious risk.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Greene</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/#comment-42274</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6024#comment-42274</guid>
		<description>What I got out of ecostew&#039;s link is we really don&#039;t know that much about how acidity is going to affect corals.  It doesn&#039;t address Newt&#039;s fair point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I got out of ecostew&#8217;s link is we really don&#8217;t know that much about how acidity is going to affect corals.  It doesn&#8217;t address Newt&#8217;s fair point.</p>
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		<title>By: darth</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/#comment-42269</link>
		<dc:creator>darth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6024#comment-42269</guid>
		<description>too bad you need to pay to read the article at ecostew&#039;s link. I saw Newt speak and had the same question as Will Greene above.

Newt also spoke about the &quot;bakken formation&quot;. Isn&#039;t that the famed &#039;oil shale&#039; which was much discussed in the 70&#039;s? Worse than the canadian tar sands is what i&#039;ve heard about it.

[&lt;em&gt;JR:  It&#039;s natural gas.  Obama campaigned on developing it.&lt;/em&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>too bad you need to pay to read the article at ecostew&#8217;s link. I saw Newt speak and had the same question as Will Greene above.</p>
<p>Newt also spoke about the &#8220;bakken formation&#8221;. Isn&#8217;t that the famed &#8216;oil shale&#8217; which was much discussed in the 70&#8217;s? Worse than the canadian tar sands is what i&#8217;ve heard about it.</p>
<p>[<em>JR:  It's natural gas.  Obama campaigned on developing it.</em>]</p>
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		<title>By: ecostew</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/04/26/waxman-markey-gingrich-cap-and-trade/#comment-42245</link>
		<dc:creator>ecostew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:33:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6024#comment-42245</guid>
		<description>Will, This may be of some help:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v425/n6956/full/425365a.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, This may be of some help:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v425/n6956/full/425365a.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nature.com/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>nature/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>journal/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>v425/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>n6956/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>full/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>425365a.html</a></p>
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