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	<title>Comments on: How I learned to stop worrying and love Waxman-Markey, Part 1:  WRI calculates it will lead to a 31%* or higher cut in U.S. GHGs by 2020</title>
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	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:27:35 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: J4zonian</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/#comment-95010</link>
		<dc:creator>J4zonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6473#comment-95010</guid>
		<description>Hey, Dorothy!

Way back up there at the beginning: Just an answer and a correction...the graph is of CO2, not temperature. The melting of the polar ice will not increase CO2 levels much directly, although in raising the temp it might trigger other tipping points which will directly increase CO2, like forest fires, tree diebacks and permafrost melting (which will release large amounts of methane, also not on the chart but should be, maybe). I see it says CO2e; maybe that means equivalent and does include other GHGs...I&#039;ll check on that. Maybe you should too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Dorothy!</p>
<p>Way back up there at the beginning: Just an answer and a correction&#8230;the graph is of CO2, not temperature. The melting of the polar ice will not increase CO2 levels much directly, although in raising the temp it might trigger other tipping points which will directly increase CO2, like forest fires, tree diebacks and permafrost melting (which will release large amounts of methane, also not on the chart but should be, maybe). I see it says CO2e; maybe that means equivalent and does include other GHGs&#8230;I&#8217;ll check on that. Maybe you should too.</p>
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		<title>By: Davian</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/#comment-50570</link>
		<dc:creator>Davian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 19:06:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6473#comment-50570</guid>
		<description>[JR: Please explain cap and trades failures to date. Please distinguish those imagined failures from the actual failures of target setting and political leadership.]

JR,
Emissions Trading Scheme 
(hardly &quot;imagined&quot;-- the carbon price plunged with the simultaneous corporate scramble to offset widespread economic downturn by dumping their carbon shares), this somehow, coming as a complete surprise to economists! (to which free marketeers habitually and predictably respond: &quot;we weren&#039;t able to do what we REALLY wanted to do&quot; (in other words, we need to impose more of our ideas with less regulatory hindrances)

[&lt;em&gt;JR:  Uhh, where are the failures.  Prices for commodities collapse in a big downturn.  Has Europe failed to meet its Kyoto target?&lt;/em&gt;]

Beyond &quot;leadership&quot; and their applied failures of market &quot;logic&quot;, there&#039;s:

Market Failure
The quintessential failsafe for all apologists and cheerleaders of free market ideologies -- blame it on &quot;market failure&quot;-- and...

Alan Greenspan&#039;s admission to the world that there are structural flaws in free market theory, essentially, that practitioners  cannot be counted upon to look after their own self-interests: they eat their own young, and the young of others. Additionally, the not-so-small detail that what is good for the investor is also not necessarily good for the planet.

[&lt;em&gt;JR:  Try again!&lt;/em&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[JR: Please explain cap and trades failures to date. Please distinguish those imagined failures from the actual failures of target setting and political leadership.]</p>
<p>JR,<br />
Emissions Trading Scheme<br />
(hardly &#8220;imagined&#8221;&#8211; the carbon price plunged with the simultaneous corporate scramble to offset widespread economic downturn by dumping their carbon shares), this somehow, coming as a complete surprise to economists! (to which free marketeers habitually and predictably respond: &#8220;we weren&#8217;t able to do what we REALLY wanted to do&#8221; (in other words, we need to impose more of our ideas with less regulatory hindrances)</p>
<p>[<em>JR:  Uhh, where are the failures.  Prices for commodities collapse in a big downturn.  Has Europe failed to meet its Kyoto target?</em>]</p>
<p>Beyond &#8220;leadership&#8221; and their applied failures of market &#8220;logic&#8221;, there&#8217;s:</p>
<p>Market Failure<br />
The quintessential failsafe for all apologists and cheerleaders of free market ideologies &#8212; blame it on &#8220;market failure&#8221;&#8211; and&#8230;</p>
<p>Alan Greenspan&#8217;s admission to the world that there are structural flaws in free market theory, essentially, that practitioners  cannot be counted upon to look after their own self-interests: they eat their own young, and the young of others. Additionally, the not-so-small detail that what is good for the investor is also not necessarily good for the planet.</p>
<p>[<em>JR:  Try again!</em>]</p>
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		<title>By: Payal Parekh</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/#comment-50546</link>
		<dc:creator>Payal Parekh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 18:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6473#comment-50546</guid>
		<description>Offsets and Waxman-Markey

Download an analysis of the offsets provisions proposed in the Waxman-Markey draft bill at http://www.internationalrivers.org/en/node/4223. The analysis was done by International Rivers and Rainforest Action Network.

The WRI analysis assumes that 100% of the offsets are additional.  Yet, there is ample evidence showing that this is not the case.   3/4 of CDM projects were up and running at the time of registration, making it difficult to argue that they were additional. The Government Accountability Office has also acknowledged that it is difficult to ensure  &quot;that every credit represents real, measureable, and long-term reductions in emissions,&quot; in a report published in November 2008.

Even if the offsets were 100% additional, it would still stand that US domestic emissions haven&#039;t been reduced, Communities living in the vicinity of polluting industries continue to suffer. The use of offsets also delays the US transition to a carbon-free economy.  Starting the transition sooner, allows us to make a smoother and more gradual transition and will cost less.  Using offsets is a delay tactic. It is akin to putting off studying and then cramming for the exam the night before.

The domestic offsets would come mainly from changing management practices on forests, farms and ranches. But land-use offsets not only replicate the additionality problems of the CDM but have a whole set of added complications due to scientists’ inability to accurately predict the climate impacts of land use changes (the European Union does not allow the use of forest offsets mainly for this reason). Also, these sinks are often temporary.

[&lt;em&gt;JR:  I hate to say it but the analysis is flawed for reasons I will lay out in a few forthcoming posts.  Fundamentally, though, the report makes the case for why there never will be 2 billion offsets purchased in any year.  Maybe one tenth that.&lt;/em&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Offsets and Waxman-Markey</p>
<p>Download an analysis of the offsets provisions proposed in the Waxman-Markey draft bill at <a href="http://www.internationalrivers.org/en/node/4223" rel="nofollow">http://www.internationalrivers.org/en/node/4223</a>. The analysis was done by International Rivers and Rainforest Action Network.</p>
<p>The WRI analysis assumes that 100% of the offsets are additional.  Yet, there is ample evidence showing that this is not the case.   3/4 of CDM projects were up and running at the time of registration, making it difficult to argue that they were additional. The Government Accountability Office has also acknowledged that it is difficult to ensure  &#8220;that every credit represents real, measureable, and long-term reductions in emissions,&#8221; in a report published in November 2008.</p>
<p>Even if the offsets were 100% additional, it would still stand that US domestic emissions haven&#8217;t been reduced, Communities living in the vicinity of polluting industries continue to suffer. The use of offsets also delays the US transition to a carbon-free economy.  Starting the transition sooner, allows us to make a smoother and more gradual transition and will cost less.  Using offsets is a delay tactic. It is akin to putting off studying and then cramming for the exam the night before.</p>
<p>The domestic offsets would come mainly from changing management practices on forests, farms and ranches. But land-use offsets not only replicate the additionality problems of the CDM but have a whole set of added complications due to scientists’ inability to accurately predict the climate impacts of land use changes (the European Union does not allow the use of forest offsets mainly for this reason). Also, these sinks are often temporary.</p>
<p>[<em>JR:  I hate to say it but the analysis is flawed for reasons I will lay out in a few forthcoming posts.  Fundamentally, though, the report makes the case for why there never will be 2 billion offsets purchased in any year.  Maybe one tenth that.</em>]</p>
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		<title>By: Wilmot McCutchen</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/#comment-50512</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilmot McCutchen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6473#comment-50512</guid>
		<description>Is the best thing we can say about W-M is that it is better than nothing?  As if any action at all, no matter how misguided and ineffective, will be better than inaction?  Remember the Iraq War? Remember the Bush Bailout? 

Sounds like we are being stampeded, folks.  To what end?  To start a junk market in traded carbon offsets.  This should be entitled The Wall Street Swindlers Bailout Act. 

Here&#039;s a counter-argument: a grand fiasco will make it harder to muster the gumption for an effective, focused effort next year.  Something that will really curb CO2 emissions significantly.  When the subject comes up again, the disgust with W-M and its hidden agendas will make people suspect that they are being played for fools again.

[&lt;em&gt;JR:  The best thing you can say about Waxman-Markey is that it is the most important and substantial piece of energy and climate legislation ever put before Congress, and that it would put the United States on the necessary path to avert catastrophic global warming while jumpstarting the transition to a clean energy economy.&lt;/em&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the best thing we can say about W-M is that it is better than nothing?  As if any action at all, no matter how misguided and ineffective, will be better than inaction?  Remember the Iraq War? Remember the Bush Bailout? </p>
<p>Sounds like we are being stampeded, folks.  To what end?  To start a junk market in traded carbon offsets.  This should be entitled The Wall Street Swindlers Bailout Act. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a counter-argument: a grand fiasco will make it harder to muster the gumption for an effective, focused effort next year.  Something that will really curb CO2 emissions significantly.  When the subject comes up again, the disgust with W-M and its hidden agendas will make people suspect that they are being played for fools again.</p>
<p>[<em>JR:  The best thing you can say about Waxman-Markey is that it is the most important and substantial piece of energy and climate legislation ever put before Congress, and that it would put the United States on the necessary path to avert catastrophic global warming while jumpstarting the transition to a clean energy economy.</em>]</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Black</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/#comment-50058</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Black</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 22:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6473#comment-50058</guid>
		<description>This interactive map shows the WM scenario and gives us an idea, proportionally, where the emissions are, and where the reductions will come from. 

http://blogs.edf.org/climateatlas/2009/01/14/what-our-co2-emissions-could-be/

Our timeframe to do something about forests is evidently very small...that and the reasons Joe elucidated are why they need to be a focus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This interactive map shows the WM scenario and gives us an idea, proportionally, where the emissions are, and where the reductions will come from. </p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.edf.org/climateatlas/2009/01/14/what-our-co2-emissions-could-be/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.edf.org/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>climateatlas/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>2009/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>01/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>14/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>what-our-co2-emissions-could-be/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span></a></p>
<p>Our timeframe to do something about forests is evidently very small&#8230;that and the reasons Joe elucidated are why they need to be a focus.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Richards</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/#comment-50016</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Richards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 20:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6473#comment-50016</guid>
		<description>It bothers me a little that the chart shows an immediate drop in 2012 from the 7500 level to the 7000 level. What happens to those 500 million metric tons in 2012? They just magically disappear? Seems the green line should start at the 2012 real-world level 7500 and go down from there. That&#039;s the real situation... in 2012 we will not be starting at a level of 7000, we will be starting at a level of 7500 and reducing from there.

But, OK... fine... it&#039;s not enough, but it&#039;s better than nothing. Let&#039;s move it on to the Senate. Waxman-Markey started out looking for a 20% to 30% reduction... maybe the Senate can get that measly 14% it calls for now back up to at least 20% before it goes to the President&#039;s desk. The EU is going for a 30% reduction by 2020... surely we can do as well? Are the French and the Germans better than us? Is America willing to pat itself on the back for a crummy 14% reduction when they are going for 30%?

How about we put the political dialog on *that* basis and see how the conservatives look wearing that egg on their faces? They are going to allow the USA to be beaten by the French and the Germans?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It bothers me a little that the chart shows an immediate drop in 2012 from the 7500 level to the 7000 level. What happens to those 500 million metric tons in 2012? They just magically disappear? Seems the green line should start at the 2012 real-world level 7500 and go down from there. That&#8217;s the real situation&#8230; in 2012 we will not be starting at a level of 7000, we will be starting at a level of 7500 and reducing from there.</p>
<p>But, OK&#8230; fine&#8230; it&#8217;s not enough, but it&#8217;s better than nothing. Let&#8217;s move it on to the Senate. Waxman-Markey started out looking for a 20% to 30% reduction&#8230; maybe the Senate can get that measly 14% it calls for now back up to at least 20% before it goes to the President&#8217;s desk. The EU is going for a 30% reduction by 2020&#8230; surely we can do as well? Are the French and the Germans better than us? Is America willing to pat itself on the back for a crummy 14% reduction when they are going for 30%?</p>
<p>How about we put the political dialog on *that* basis and see how the conservatives look wearing that egg on their faces? They are going to allow the USA to be beaten by the French and the Germans?</p>
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		<title>By: salemguy</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/#comment-50014</link>
		<dc:creator>salemguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 20:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6473#comment-50014</guid>
		<description>Noting the focus on deforestation, there&#039;s a bit of a silver lining here: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/30/science/earth/30forest.html?_r=1

As suggested, if I recall correctly, this does not replace lost biodiversity - flora and fauna that grow only over long periods, but it&#039;s some good news.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noting the focus on deforestation, there&#8217;s a bit of a silver lining here: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/30/science/earth/30forest.html?_r=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>2009/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>01/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>30/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>science/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>earth/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>30forest.html?_r=1</a></p>
<p>As suggested, if I recall correctly, this does not replace lost biodiversity &#8211; flora and fauna that grow only over long periods, but it&#8217;s some good news.</p>
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		<title>By: Sasparilla</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/#comment-49935</link>
		<dc:creator>Sasparilla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 18:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6473#comment-49935</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d feel a heck of alot better with some realistic reduction and target numbers.  This thing will get us going, but as it is I wouldn&#039;t call it a B+ at all.

A &quot;C&quot; normally means passing, however WM-DD isn&#039;t going to get us down to where we need to be in time (i.e. keep us below runaway feedback points where we loose control), not even close.  That doesn&#039;t sound like a passing grade to me.

I&#039;d say, as it is, this is a D+ at best and we can only hope it can be strengthened into something that will do what we need as time marches by and we fall further into crisis territory (we have to count on our great political leaders to do this strengthening as we march into the ramifications of peak oil and associated impacts on natural gas prices since natural gas prices track oil price trends quite closely) - this isn&#039;t a very good bet either.

All that said, a D+ bad bet is alot better than a F no bet at all.  Bring on WM-DD and lets gets moving - we are out of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d feel a heck of alot better with some realistic reduction and target numbers.  This thing will get us going, but as it is I wouldn&#8217;t call it a B+ at all.</p>
<p>A &#8220;C&#8221; normally means passing, however WM-DD isn&#8217;t going to get us down to where we need to be in time (i.e. keep us below runaway feedback points where we loose control), not even close.  That doesn&#8217;t sound like a passing grade to me.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say, as it is, this is a D+ at best and we can only hope it can be strengthened into something that will do what we need as time marches by and we fall further into crisis territory (we have to count on our great political leaders to do this strengthening as we march into the ramifications of peak oil and associated impacts on natural gas prices since natural gas prices track oil price trends quite closely) &#8211; this isn&#8217;t a very good bet either.</p>
<p>All that said, a D+ bad bet is alot better than a F no bet at all.  Bring on WM-DD and lets gets moving &#8211; we are out of time.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilmot McCutchen</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/#comment-49922</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilmot McCutchen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 17:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6473#comment-49922</guid>
		<description>Evidently we are preparing to launch another junk market, this time in traded offsets.  I am not confident that we will be guaranteed that the rating agencies will be very strict in their scrutiny and there can be no Wall Street shenanigans as there were for mortgage-backed securities and credit default swaps.  

Offsets, indulgences, and a cheap fine for CO2 emissions are not good features.  Waxman-Markey may not be da bomb, but it is certainly da dud.  

I wonder about the assumptions behind this happy prediction, which are said to be &quot;a tad opaque.&quot; A little more looking under the hood might be in order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evidently we are preparing to launch another junk market, this time in traded offsets.  I am not confident that we will be guaranteed that the rating agencies will be very strict in their scrutiny and there can be no Wall Street shenanigans as there were for mortgage-backed securities and credit default swaps.  </p>
<p>Offsets, indulgences, and a cheap fine for CO2 emissions are not good features.  Waxman-Markey may not be da bomb, but it is certainly da dud.  </p>
<p>I wonder about the assumptions behind this happy prediction, which are said to be &#8220;a tad opaque.&#8221; A little more looking under the hood might be in order.</p>
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		<title>By: Davian</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/10/waxman-markey-2020-ghg-cuts-wri/#comment-49919</link>
		<dc:creator>Davian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 17:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=6473#comment-49919</guid>
		<description>WRI has been correctly observed as already signed-on to WM: which is a problematic draft complete with gaping holes and serious omissions of compromise. WRI&#039;s ties to industry are irrefutable. Cap and Trade failures to date are legion.

Hansen regards this approach as a &quot;Temple of Doom&quot;. Anybody listening?

We already possess the power to increase efficiencies yet we&#039;re sitting around while the last few grains of sand run out, AND while compromising with the largest corporate emitters.

 Jeeze, get real and put down the pom-poms-- such a sanguine appraisal of a failed legislative approach to what is really needed makes me wonder if the precautionary principle means anything on this site.

[&lt;em&gt;JR:  Please explain cap and trades failures to date.  Please distinguish those imagined failures from the actual failures of target setting and political leadership.&lt;/em&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WRI has been correctly observed as already signed-on to WM: which is a problematic draft complete with gaping holes and serious omissions of compromise. WRI&#8217;s ties to industry are irrefutable. Cap and Trade failures to date are legion.</p>
<p>Hansen regards this approach as a &#8220;Temple of Doom&#8221;. Anybody listening?</p>
<p>We already possess the power to increase efficiencies yet we&#8217;re sitting around while the last few grains of sand run out, AND while compromising with the largest corporate emitters.</p>
<p> Jeeze, get real and put down the pom-poms&#8211; such a sanguine appraisal of a failed legislative approach to what is really needed makes me wonder if the precautionary principle means anything on this site.</p>
<p>[<em>JR:  Please explain cap and trades failures to date.  Please distinguish those imagined failures from the actual failures of target setting and political leadership.</em>]</p>
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