Comments on: New EPA analysis of Waxman-Markey: Consumer electric bills 7% lower in 2020 thanks to efficiency — plus 22 GW of extra coal retirements and no new dirty plants http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:48:27 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: G http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/#comment-84464 G Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:46:04 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=8313#comment-84464 I get the EE argument and buy-in to cap-and-trade in general (I live and breath it, really). But playing the devil's advocate, what is the use of climate legislation if it doesn't send a credible price signal to consumers? Ultimately individuals make the choice to drive cars, use lights, and adjust their thermostats -- aren't we just fooling ourselves if our policy choices don't correctly account for the societal costs of our chosen energy portfolio? Shouldn't we just be honest and prepare ourselves for $10/gal gasoline instead of shuffling monies from ratepayers to utilities and back to ratepayers in hopes the problems will magically disappear up the flue? I get the EE argument and buy-in to cap-and-trade in general (I live and breath it, really). But playing the devil’s advocate, what is the use of climate legislation if it doesn’t send a credible price signal to consumers? Ultimately individuals make the choice to drive cars, use lights, and adjust their thermostats — aren’t we just fooling ourselves if our policy choices don’t correctly account for the societal costs of our chosen energy portfolio? Shouldn’t we just be honest and prepare ourselves for $10/gal gasoline instead of shuffling monies from ratepayers to utilities and back to ratepayers in hopes the problems will magically disappear up the flue?

]]> By: Leif http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/#comment-83867 Leif Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:21:39 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=8313#comment-83867 I recall reading a few years back that the US wastes the equivalent amount of energy that the Alaska pipe line produces. If so, that is a big hunk of change going down the rat hole with the added burden of paying interest to foreign investors on it to boot. I recall reading a few years back that the US wastes the equivalent amount of energy that the Alaska pipe line produces. If so, that is a big hunk of change going down the rat hole with the added burden of paying interest to foreign investors on it to boot.

]]> By: David B. Benson http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/#comment-83851 David B. Benson Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:02:09 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=8313#comment-83851 <b>ECD Fan</b> --- New electric generation capacity, no matter what energy source is used, will send rates way up. Existing power plants are paid for, mostly long ago. New ones are much more expensive to build now and the investors in those plants have to be paid off over something like 20--30 years. With increased energy efficiency, not so many new power plants will be required. ECD Fan — New electric generation capacity, no matter what energy source is used, will send rates way up. Existing power plants are paid for, mostly long ago. New ones are much more expensive to build now and the investors in those plants have to be paid off over something like 20–30 years.

With increased energy efficiency, not so many new power plants will be required.

]]> By: RoySV http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/#comment-83778 RoySV Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:20:30 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=8313#comment-83778 Thanks for your reply. Really hard to evaluate when claims are made based on alleged modeling of incentive regulations not yet adopted. Then there's this: "...the Environmental Protection Agency projects that even if the emissions limits go into effect, the U.S. would use more carbon-dioxide-heavy coal in 2020 than it did in 2005.." From your reply, I would assume this is incorrect? If we really don't reduce coal in the next 15 years that would be a gross failure. Roy Thanks for your reply. Really hard to evaluate when claims are made based on alleged modeling of incentive regulations not yet adopted.
Then there’s this:
“…the Environmental Protection Agency projects that even if the emissions limits go into effect, the U.S. would use more carbon-dioxide-heavy coal in 2020 than it did in 2005..”

From your reply, I would assume this is incorrect? If we really don’t reduce coal in the next 15 years that would be a gross failure.

Roy

]]> By: PaulK http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/#comment-83660 PaulK Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:00:21 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=8313#comment-83660 "I hope it is true that cost per BTU and per KWH will not go up" No one is saying that the per BTU and KWH costs won't go up. The idea is that the free allowances will soften the increase. It is the monthly bill that is claimed to stay the same because of more efficient use. “I hope it is true that cost per BTU and per KWH will not go up”

No one is saying that the per BTU and KWH costs won’t go up. The idea is that the free allowances will soften the increase. It is the monthly bill that is claimed to stay the same because of more efficient use.

]]> By: RoySV http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/#comment-83655 RoySV Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:54:10 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=8313#comment-83655 Joe, Jim Tankersley, LA Times 22June, has a much more grim assessment of continued coal emissions under Waxman-Markey. Could you please comment? http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-coal22-2009jun22,0,6722721.story [<em>JR: Have you read the piece? it is based entirely on disinformation from The Breakthrough Institute, which I have thoroughly trashed here. Sad to see Tankersley get suckered by such crap.</em>] Joe,
Jim Tankersley, LA Times 22June, has a much more grim assessment of continued coal emissions under Waxman-Markey. Could you please comment?

http://www.latimes.com/ news/ nationworld/ nation/ la-na-coal22-2009jun22,0,6722721.story

[JR: Have you read the piece? it is based entirely on disinformation from The Breakthrough Institute, which I have thoroughly trashed here. Sad to see Tankersley get suckered by such crap.]

]]> By: r simpson http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/#comment-83615 r simpson Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:40:57 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=8313#comment-83615 I hope it is true that cost per BTU and per KWH will not go up. Savings will come from tax credits? Decreasing consumption? I can lower consumption now by 7% and save 7%. I also wonder what kind of economists work for the EPA. [<em>JR: Rates go up, bills go down. It's called energy efficiency and I have written about it at length.</em>] I hope it is true that cost per BTU and per KWH will not go up. Savings will come from tax credits? Decreasing consumption? I can lower consumption now by 7% and save 7%. I also wonder what kind of economists work for the EPA.

[JR: Rates go up, bills go down. It's called energy efficiency and I have written about it at length.]

]]> By: Rick Covert http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/#comment-83612 Rick Covert Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:35:02 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=8313#comment-83612 If price signals to consumers through Waxman-Markey won't curtail use of CO2 intensively generated electricity won't the cost to the electricity generation providers to build new coal fired plants hinder further expansion of coal fired electrical plants? If price signals to consumers through Waxman-Markey won’t curtail use of CO2 intensively generated electricity won’t the cost to the electricity generation providers to build new coal fired plants hinder further expansion of coal fired electrical plants?

]]> By: ECD Fan http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/#comment-83602 ECD Fan Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:20:47 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=8313#comment-83602 "We don’t have to just wish we were there — we can have a clean energy economy for the cost of a postcard stamp a day. " Really? And who is going to pay the huge debts that will burden the economy due to that expensive "clean" electricity? The same (lack of) thinking caused the real estate bubble. Look now where we are. “We don’t have to just wish we were there — we can have a clean energy economy for the cost of a postcard stamp a day. ”

Really? And who is going to pay the huge debts that will burden the economy due to that expensive “clean” electricity?

The same (lack of) thinking caused the real estate bubble. Look now where we are.

]]> By: Leif http://climateprogress.org/2009/06/24/new-epa-analysis-of-waxman-markey-consumer-electric-bills-lower-in-2020-energy-efficiency-coal-plant-retiremen/#comment-83563 Leif Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:13:08 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=8313#comment-83563 If "A penny saved is a penny earned" then the savings also represent money that did not have to be earned and thus subject to tax which is another 25% savings to the consumer, or if earned can be put into a savings account or retirement account with differed taxation. Tell me, where else can the public invest that they can receive 5 to 30% on there investment? If “A penny saved is a penny earned” then the savings also represent money that did not have to be earned and thus subject to tax which is another 25% savings to the consumer, or if earned can be put into a savings account or retirement account with differed taxation. Tell me, where else can the public invest that they can receive 5 to 30% on there investment?

]]>