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	<title>Comments on: Imagine a World without Fish:  Deadly ocean acidification &#8212; hard to deny, harder to geo-engineer, but not hard to stop &#8212; is subject of documentary</title>
	<atom:link href="http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/</link>
	<description>The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Roth</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/#comment-241301</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Roth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 05:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=10796#comment-241301</guid>
		<description>Oops sorry mixed up the movies - the one I was referring to in the last comment was &quot;Acid Test&quot; narrated by Sigourney Weaver and not &quot;A Sea Change&quot;. My apologies for any inconvenience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops sorry mixed up the movies &#8211; the one I was referring to in the last comment was &#8220;Acid Test&#8221; narrated by Sigourney Weaver and not &#8220;A Sea Change&#8221;. My apologies for any inconvenience.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Roth</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/#comment-240765</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Roth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=10796#comment-240765</guid>
		<description>This movie is now available in its entirety at:
http://www.nrdc.org/oceans/acidification/aboutthefilm.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This movie is now available in its entirety at:<br />
<a href="http://www.nrdc.org/oceans/acidification/aboutthefilm.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.nrdc.org/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>oceans/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>acidification/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>aboutthefilm.asp</a></p>
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		<title>By: Leland Palmer</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/#comment-107200</link>
		<dc:creator>Leland Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 12:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=10796#comment-107200</guid>
		<description>One final thought-

Carbon from methane hydrates is depleted in carbon 13, an isotope of carbon. This is one of the main fossil signatures (a shift in C12 to C13 isotope ratios) from past apparent methane catastrophes, such as the Paleocene-Eocene thermal maximum and the Permian-Triassic extinction event.

So, it should be possible to estimate and monitor the rate of dissociation of the methane hydrates by real time monitoring of the carbon 12 to carbon 13 isotope ratios.

I think there are a few projects to do this, using mass spectrometers, but we need to do this on a much larger scale, and track down and remediate methane hydrate plumes whenever we can, IMO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One final thought-</p>
<p>Carbon from methane hydrates is depleted in carbon 13, an isotope of carbon. This is one of the main fossil signatures (a shift in C12 to C13 isotope ratios) from past apparent methane catastrophes, such as the Paleocene-Eocene thermal maximum and the Permian-Triassic extinction event.</p>
<p>So, it should be possible to estimate and monitor the rate of dissociation of the methane hydrates by real time monitoring of the carbon 12 to carbon 13 isotope ratios.</p>
<p>I think there are a few projects to do this, using mass spectrometers, but we need to do this on a much larger scale, and track down and remediate methane hydrate plumes whenever we can, IMO.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher S. Johnson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/#comment-106846</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher S. Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 21:26:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=10796#comment-106846</guid>
		<description>And lets not forget that, even if we drop our emissions to zero, the CO2 will plateau for close to a millennium before going down.  So we are locked into that very level of damage.  The WORSENING can be stopped by ceasing emissions, but the relative damage cannot, except by species adaptation or a crazy CO2 sucking machine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And lets not forget that, even if we drop our emissions to zero, the CO2 will plateau for close to a millennium before going down.  So we are locked into that very level of damage.  The WORSENING can be stopped by ceasing emissions, but the relative damage cannot, except by species adaptation or a crazy CO2 sucking machine.</p>
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		<title>By: Leland Palmer</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/#comment-106521</link>
		<dc:creator>Leland Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 03:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=10796#comment-106521</guid>
		<description>This might actually be good news.

Or, maybe not.

The site where the 10X higher rate of acidification was measured, Tatoosh Island off Washington state, is close to the middle of a big deposit of methane hydrates, designated P9 on this USGS poster:

http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/globalhydrate/images/browse.jpg

The bad news is that this pH measurement might indicate significant hydrate dissociation.

The good news might be that this is an atypical result, and that a significant amount of acidification is coming from the hydrates. So, it might be a localized phenomenon. 

Darn straight, we need to find out ASAP. 

These deposits are located on the Juan de Fuca plate, mentioned as a possible extremely secure and huge reservoir for deep injection of CO2, in this paper:

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/29/9920.full.pdf+html

If there are methane hydrate plumes bubbling up off Washington State, we need to capture the methane, burn it with CCS while generating electricity, and deep inject the resulting CO2 down into the Juan de Fuca plate, ASAP, and do whatever we can to limit this ocean acidification, if this hypothesis to explain the low pH readings is correct. 

Just an idea. 

Don&#039;t know what to hope, whether it&#039;s right or wrong.

This global warming is like a nightmare, like a slow motion train wreck. 

And, it&#039;s going to get a lot worse, under any reasonable set of assumptions, before it gets better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This might actually be good news.</p>
<p>Or, maybe not.</p>
<p>The site where the 10X higher rate of acidification was measured, Tatoosh Island off Washington state, is close to the middle of a big deposit of methane hydrates, designated P9 on this USGS poster:</p>
<p><a href="http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/globalhydrate/images/browse.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>globalhydrate/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>images/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>browse.jpg</a></p>
<p>The bad news is that this pH measurement might indicate significant hydrate dissociation.</p>
<p>The good news might be that this is an atypical result, and that a significant amount of acidification is coming from the hydrates. So, it might be a localized phenomenon. </p>
<p>Darn straight, we need to find out ASAP. </p>
<p>These deposits are located on the Juan de Fuca plate, mentioned as a possible extremely secure and huge reservoir for deep injection of CO2, in this paper:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pnas.org/content/105/29/9920.full.pdf+html" rel="nofollow">http://www.pnas.org/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>content/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>105/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>29/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>9920.full.pdf+html</a></p>
<p>If there are methane hydrate plumes bubbling up off Washington State, we need to capture the methane, burn it with CCS while generating electricity, and deep inject the resulting CO2 down into the Juan de Fuca plate, ASAP, and do whatever we can to limit this ocean acidification, if this hypothesis to explain the low pH readings is correct. </p>
<p>Just an idea. </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t know what to hope, whether it&#8217;s right or wrong.</p>
<p>This global warming is like a nightmare, like a slow motion train wreck. </p>
<p>And, it&#8217;s going to get a lot worse, under any reasonable set of assumptions, before it gets better.</p>
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		<title>By: David B. Benson</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/#comment-106472</link>
		<dc:creator>David B. Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 01:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=10796#comment-106472</guid>
		<description>Bering Strait waters flow north.
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/HLD/Bstrait/bstrait.html#Importance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bering Strait waters flow north.<br />
<a href="http://psc.apl.washington.edu/HLD/Bstrait/bstrait.html#Importance" rel="nofollow">http://psc.apl.washington.edu/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>HLD/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>Bstrait/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>bstrait.html#Importance</a></p>
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		<title>By: Cynodont</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/#comment-106325</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynodont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=10796#comment-106325</guid>
		<description>Good post.
Yes, the oceans are in big trouble if we don&#039;t reduce CO2 emissions and lower atmospheric CO2 levels.

What scares me is that we have already passed the tipping point of runaway CO2 emissions from NATURAL sources. Melting Arctic, burning Amazon rainforest, reduced ocean circulation, etc...  So very soon, it won&#039;t matter when humans cut emissions or not, because these natural sources are two orders of magnitude greater than human emissions.

Frankly, we are going to need geoengineering to prevent these runaway feedbacks from saying &quot;game over&quot;. 

There are two types of geoengineering that reduce both atmospheric CO2 and ocean acidifcation. Ocean Iron Fertilization, and the Accelerated Weathering of Limestone. Even though there are significant risks associated with both, I think the risk of not doing them is very likely much greater. We must accelerate scientific research many fold to find out definitively which carries greater risk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post.<br />
Yes, the oceans are in big trouble if we don&#8217;t reduce CO2 emissions and lower atmospheric CO2 levels.</p>
<p>What scares me is that we have already passed the tipping point of runaway CO2 emissions from NATURAL sources. Melting Arctic, burning Amazon rainforest, reduced ocean circulation, etc&#8230;  So very soon, it won&#8217;t matter when humans cut emissions or not, because these natural sources are two orders of magnitude greater than human emissions.</p>
<p>Frankly, we are going to need geoengineering to prevent these runaway feedbacks from saying &#8220;game over&#8221;. </p>
<p>There are two types of geoengineering that reduce both atmospheric CO2 and ocean acidifcation. Ocean Iron Fertilization, and the Accelerated Weathering of Limestone. Even though there are significant risks associated with both, I think the risk of not doing them is very likely much greater. We must accelerate scientific research many fold to find out definitively which carries greater risk.</p>
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		<title>By: Leland Palmer</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/#comment-106182</link>
		<dc:creator>Leland Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=10796#comment-106182</guid>
		<description>Oh, on edit-

I wasn&#039;t talking about the specific hydrate plumes found off West Spitsbergen, but was talking generically about other hydrate plumes in the Arctic, which might be bubbling away without our knowledge in the Arctic region.

This would be consistent with the warming of waters in the Arctic, sad to say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, on edit-</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t talking about the specific hydrate plumes found off West Spitsbergen, but was talking generically about other hydrate plumes in the Arctic, which might be bubbling away without our knowledge in the Arctic region.</p>
<p>This would be consistent with the warming of waters in the Arctic, sad to say.</p>
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		<title>By: Leland Palmer</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/#comment-106181</link>
		<dc:creator>Leland Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=10796#comment-106181</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the faster than predicted increase in acidification has something to do with hydrate plumes like these:

http://www.noc.soton.ac.uk/nocs/news.php?action=display_news&amp;idx=628

&lt;blockquote&gt;he warming of an Arctic current over the last 30 years has triggered the release of methane, a potent greenhouse gas, from methane hydrate stored in the sediment beneath the seabed.
Warming Ocean Contributes to Global Warming – 14/08/09

The warming of an Arctic current over the last 30 years has triggered the release of methane, a potent greenhouse gas, from methane hydrate stored in the sediment beneath the seabed.

Scientists at the National Oceanography Centre Southampton working in collaboration with researchers from the University of Birmingham, Royal Holloway London and IFM-Geomar in Germany have found that more than 250 plumes of bubbles of methane gas are rising from the seabed of the West Spitsbergen continental margin in the Arctic, in a depth range of 150 to 400 metres.  &lt;/blockquote&gt;

The BBC story that Joe links to above that says that ocean acidification is increasing ten times faster than previously estimated gets its data from the Pacific Northwest, off the Washington coast.

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/48/18848.full

It seems possible that this might be Arctic water, with increased CO2 levels from methanotroph bacteria feeding off of these hydrate plumes.

It might be possible to remediate some (but not all) of the impact from these hydrate plumes in a carbon neutral way, by capturing the methane from them, burning the methane using carbon capture technologies to generate electricity, and deep injecting the CO2 into basalt strata below the ocean floor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the faster than predicted increase in acidification has something to do with hydrate plumes like these:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.noc.soton.ac.uk/nocs/news.php?action=display_news&amp;idx=628" rel="nofollow">http://www.noc.soton.ac.uk/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>nocs/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>news.php?action=display_news&amp;idx=628</a></p>
<blockquote><p>he warming of an Arctic current over the last 30 years has triggered the release of methane, a potent greenhouse gas, from methane hydrate stored in the sediment beneath the seabed.<br />
Warming Ocean Contributes to Global Warming – 14/08/09</p>
<p>The warming of an Arctic current over the last 30 years has triggered the release of methane, a potent greenhouse gas, from methane hydrate stored in the sediment beneath the seabed.</p>
<p>Scientists at the National Oceanography Centre Southampton working in collaboration with researchers from the University of Birmingham, Royal Holloway London and IFM-Geomar in Germany have found that more than 250 plumes of bubbles of methane gas are rising from the seabed of the West Spitsbergen continental margin in the Arctic, in a depth range of 150 to 400 metres.  </p></blockquote>
<p>The BBC story that Joe links to above that says that ocean acidification is increasing ten times faster than previously estimated gets its data from the Pacific Northwest, off the Washington coast.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pnas.org/content/105/48/18848.full" rel="nofollow">http://www.pnas.org/content/105/48/18848.full</a></p>
<p>It seems possible that this might be Arctic water, with increased CO2 levels from methanotroph bacteria feeding off of these hydrate plumes.</p>
<p>It might be possible to remediate some (but not all) of the impact from these hydrate plumes in a carbon neutral way, by capturing the methane from them, burning the methane using carbon capture technologies to generate electricity, and deep injecting the CO2 into basalt strata below the ocean floor.</p>
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		<title>By: ecostew</title>
		<link>http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/02/a-sea-change-imagine-a-world-without-fish-ocean-acidification-film/#comment-106175</link>
		<dc:creator>ecostew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://climateprogress.org/?p=10796#comment-106175</guid>
		<description>And one more: http://oceanacidification.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/great-barrier-reef-said-to-face-catastrophic-damage-update1/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And one more: <a href="http://oceanacidification.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/great-barrier-reef-said-to-face-catastrophic-damage-update1/" rel="nofollow">http://oceanacidification.wordpress.com/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>2009/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>09/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>03/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span>great-barrier-reef-said-to-face-catastrophic-damage-update1/<span style="font-size: 1px;"> </span></a></p>
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