Comments on: Science: CO2 levels haven’t been this high for 15 million years, when it was 5° to 10°F warmer and seas were 75 to 120 feet higher — “We have shown that this dramatic rise in sea level is associated with an increase in CO2 levels of about 100 ppm.” http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/ The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Sun, 21 Mar 2010 02:41:15 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Jonathan http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/#comment-252480 Jonathan Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:51:11 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=12516#comment-252480 re #24: What I mean is, does this new research ("You would have to go back at least 15 million years to find carbon dioxide levels on Earth as high as they are today") show that mid-Pliocene CO2 (3 million years ago) was in fact lower than today? Any idea how much? IPCC 2007 says mid-Pliocene "atmospheric CO2 concentrations (estimated to be between 360 to 400 ppm) were likely higher than pre-industrial values". A bit clumsy but I think it means they put more confidence (>66%) in the fact levels were higher than 280 than they are in the 360-400 estimate. - http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch6s6-3-2.html re #24:

What I mean is, does this new research (”You would have to go back at least 15 million years to find carbon dioxide levels on Earth as high as they are today”) show that mid-Pliocene CO2 (3 million years ago) was in fact lower than today? Any idea how much?

IPCC 2007 says mid-Pliocene “atmospheric CO2 concentrations (estimated to be between 360 to 400 ppm) were likely higher than pre-industrial values”. A bit clumsy but I think it means they put more confidence (>66%) in the fact levels were higher than 280 than they are in the 360-400 estimate.

- http://www.ipcc.ch/ publications_and_data/ ar4/ wg1/ en/ ch6s6-3-2.html

]]> By: Jonathan http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/#comment-251348 Jonathan Mon, 11 Jan 2010 01:15:39 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=12516#comment-251348 Mael @22's trolling notwithstanding, how does this new research gel with the notion that CO2 was around 400ppm during the mid-Piocene 3 million years ago? See e.g. http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2009/12/07/2763819.htm Mael @22’s trolling notwithstanding, how does this new research gel with the notion that CO2 was around 400ppm during the mid-Piocene 3 million years ago? See e.g. http://www.abc.net.au/ science/ articles/ 2009/ 12/ 07/ 2763819.htm

]]> By: gallopingcamel http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/#comment-248088 gallopingcamel Tue, 05 Jan 2010 18:05:45 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=12516#comment-248088 Mael (#22) Good point about the CO2 concentration being abnormally low. JR is presumably one of the moderators if he connects low CO2 with the rise of civilization. I wonder whether JR sees a connection between high CO2 levels (700 to 2,200 ppm) and the emergence of mammals during the Eocene eventually leading to the Ascent of Man. Mael (#22)

Good point about the CO2 concentration being abnormally low. JR is presumably one of the moderators if he connects low CO2 with the rise of civilization.

I wonder whether JR sees a connection between high CO2 levels (700 to 2,200 ppm) and the emergence of mammals during the Eocene eventually leading to the Ascent of Man.

]]> By: Mael http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/#comment-218140 Mael Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:24:25 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=12516#comment-218140 Well the first problem I see is that these scientists are being very misleading. The last time CO2 levels were at 400 ppm was about 3 million years ago not 15 million years ago. We live in a period of time when CO2 has been abnormally low and only recentally has it been recovering to what are typically levels when compared to the bulk of Earth's history. [<em>JR: Not. Human civilization developed during this "abnormally low" CO2, as you put it.</em>] Well the first problem I see is that these scientists are being very misleading. The last time CO2 levels were at 400 ppm was about 3 million years ago not 15 million years ago. We live in a period of time when CO2 has been abnormally low and only recentally has it been recovering to what are typically levels when compared to the bulk of Earth’s history.

[JR: Not. Human civilization developed during this "abnormally low" CO2, as you put it.]

]]> By: Jan Lundberg , petroleum industry analyst http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/#comment-168502 Jan Lundberg , petroleum industry analyst Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:37:33 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=12516#comment-168502 It's still easier to "study the problem" and just as easy to promote energy reform of the infrastructure and of policy. Cut greenhouse gas emissions? Sorry, that's not the intention of the players going to Copenhagen, including almost of the nonprofits -- unless you equate eventual reductions in energy use per capita (amidst population growth?) via technofixes as the same as cuts. The way the politics are rigged to preserve the corporate economy and our consumption patterns, we'd better pray for petrocollapse. It has begun anyway, but it's not considered by the prognosticators and commentators able to get a large forum these days. For more of this kind of realism and a challenge for preemptive action, see my widely read article (although not widely read enough) new article, "Copenhagen Is Supposed to Fail. DIY!" at http://www.culturechange.org/go.html?534 Please pass it on if you think it's spot on. Cheers, Jan Lundberg Culture Change It’s still easier to “study the problem” and just as easy to promote energy reform of the infrastructure and of policy. Cut greenhouse gas emissions? Sorry, that’s not the intention of the players going to Copenhagen, including almost of the nonprofits — unless you equate eventual reductions in energy use per capita (amidst population growth?) via technofixes as the same as cuts.
The way the politics are rigged to preserve the corporate economy and our consumption patterns, we’d better pray for petrocollapse. It has begun anyway, but it’s not considered by the prognosticators and commentators able to get a large forum these days.
For more of this kind of realism and a challenge for preemptive action, see my widely read article (although not widely read enough) new article, “Copenhagen Is Supposed to Fail. DIY!” at http://www.culturechange.org/go.html?534
Please pass it on if you think it’s spot on.
Cheers,
Jan Lundberg
Culture Change

]]> By: Rockfish http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/#comment-166715 Rockfish Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:11:59 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=12516#comment-166715 Joe- Curious if you've seen this report and will have post on it? http://www.wbgu.de/wbgu_sn2009_en.html It argues for a MUCH more aggressive approach to GHG reduction.... Joe-

Curious if you’ve seen this report and will have post on it?

http://www.wbgu.de/wbgu_sn2009_en.html

It argues for a MUCH more aggressive approach to GHG reduction….

]]> By: Sable http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/#comment-166663 Sable Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:18:46 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=12516#comment-166663 "As a bonus, adding Hansen’s head to Mt. Rushmore would increase global albedo." LOL! Thanks for that! Now I know how I can best do my part to cool the planet. Stop wearing my hat outside. “As a bonus, adding Hansen’s head to Mt. Rushmore would increase global albedo.” LOL!

Thanks for that! Now I know how I can best do my part to cool the planet. Stop wearing my hat outside.

]]> By: Richard Brenne http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/#comment-165828 Richard Brenne Mon, 19 Oct 2009 06:40:01 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=12516#comment-165828 Andy's comment (16) about Hansen is excellent. Andy, add to what you wrote so well that Hansen also heroically resisted censoring and censure from eight years of the rabidly anti-science and frothingly pro-fossil fuel Bush administration. Bill McKibben's 1993 profile of Hansen in Outside Magazine is a masterpiece, and available in the 2008 book, "The Bill McKibben Reader" - a wonderful book with nothing but world-class essays. I've asked dozens of top climate scientists who the Robert Oppenheimer (who understood the physics, math, metalurgy and all the kinds of engineering about as well as the heads of each of those departments at Los Alamos during the Manhattan Project so he could help synthesize them all successfully) of climate science is, and I've heard Hansen's name far more than any other. (Also Steven Schneider, Kevin Trenberth, Kerry Emanual - and once even Al Gore!) Increasingly I'd also nominate Joe Romm. Who would you folks say? As a bonus, adding Hansen's head to Mt. Rushmore would increase global albedo. Andy’s comment (16) about Hansen is excellent. Andy, add to what you wrote so well that Hansen also heroically resisted censoring and censure from eight years of the rabidly anti-science and frothingly pro-fossil fuel Bush administration.

Bill McKibben’s 1993 profile of Hansen in Outside Magazine is a masterpiece, and available in the 2008 book, “The Bill McKibben Reader” – a wonderful book with nothing but world-class essays.

I’ve asked dozens of top climate scientists who the Robert Oppenheimer (who understood the physics, math, metalurgy and all the kinds of engineering about as well as the heads of each of those departments at Los Alamos during the Manhattan Project so he could help synthesize them all successfully) of climate science is, and I’ve heard Hansen’s name far more than any other.

(Also Steven Schneider, Kevin Trenberth, Kerry Emanual – and once even Al Gore!) Increasingly I’d also nominate Joe Romm. Who would you folks say?

As a bonus, adding Hansen’s head to Mt. Rushmore would increase global albedo.

]]> By: Richard Brenne http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/#comment-165803 Richard Brenne Mon, 19 Oct 2009 06:27:13 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=12516#comment-165803 Sorry, I posted this in the wrong thread last time. I'm still asking: Joe, Lou and others: On page 52 of “The Vanishing Face of Gaia” James Lovelock writes: “The Earth’s greenhouse in now well above 400 ppm (carbon dioxide is near 390 ppm but methane, nitrous oxide and the CFCs lift the total effect to nearer that of 430 ppm carbon dioxide).” What do you think of pointing this out to the public? Does it confuse the issue? Is it something that would be useful for scientists to discuss amongst themselves? Because CO2 ppm fluctuates from a high of 390 ppm in May down to 387 ppm in July, what is the figure that you feel most comfortable using? The high point, as McKibben does? Or the low, or the annual midpoint? To me it would be good for all scientists and those communicating science to agree about one annual standard so we can discuss it more easily from year to year without confusing the public. What do you think? Sorry, I posted this in the wrong thread last time. I’m still asking:

Joe, Lou and others:

On page 52 of “The Vanishing Face of Gaia” James Lovelock writes: “The Earth’s greenhouse in now well above 400 ppm (carbon dioxide is near 390 ppm but methane, nitrous oxide and the CFCs lift the total effect to nearer that of 430 ppm carbon dioxide).”

What do you think of pointing this out to the public? Does it confuse the issue? Is it something that would be useful for scientists to discuss amongst themselves?

Because CO2 ppm fluctuates from a high of 390 ppm in May down to 387 ppm in July, what is the figure that you feel most comfortable using? The high point, as McKibben does? Or the low, or the annual midpoint?

To me it would be good for all scientists and those communicating science to agree about one annual standard so we can discuss it more easily from year to year without confusing the public. What do you think?

]]> By: Mossy http://climateprogress.org/2009/10/18/science-co2-levels-havent-been-this-high-for-15-million-years-when-it-was-5%c2%b0-to-10%c2%b0f-warmer-and-seas-were-75-to-120-feet-higher-we-have-shown-that-this-dramatic-rise-in-sea-level-i/#comment-165676 Mossy Mon, 19 Oct 2009 04:28:43 +0000 http://climateprogress.org/?p=12516#comment-165676 Speaking of CO2 levels, and the need for people to ACT, Bill McKibben gave a great talk at Harvard this afternoon, pointing out the opportunity that people all over the world to SPEAK OUT this weekend. How? As a start, spend AN HOUR or so participating in one of the ca. 3,500 climate actions being planned by www.350.org in more than 150 countries on Saturday, October 24th as part of Global Climate Action Day. The message, translated into 14 languages, boils down to: "We want our elected officials to achieve a bold, fair and binding climate treaty in Copenhagen, that will return atmosheric CO2 to 350 ppm ASAP!" (Unfortunately, 'ASAP' still means many decades, but we must start now.) Folks in the Maldives helped raise climate impact awareness by having an underwater Cabinet meeting a few days ago. Dozens of churches in New England will send their bells pealing 350 times Saturday morning, prior to citizens' walks, bicyle rides, and runs to various events. Help add strength to the movement to save ourselves. Join an action! Speaking of CO2 levels, and the need for people to ACT, Bill McKibben gave a great talk at Harvard this afternoon, pointing out the opportunity that people all over the world to SPEAK OUT this weekend.

How? As a start, spend AN HOUR or so participating in one of the ca. 3,500 climate actions being planned by http://www.350.org in more than 150 countries on Saturday, October 24th as part of Global Climate Action Day. The message, translated into 14 languages, boils down to: “We want our elected officials to achieve a bold, fair and binding climate treaty in Copenhagen, that will return atmosheric CO2 to 350 ppm ASAP!” (Unfortunately, ‘ASAP’ still means many decades, but we must start now.)

Folks in the Maldives helped raise climate impact awareness by having an underwater Cabinet meeting a few days ago. Dozens of churches in New England will send their bells pealing 350 times Saturday morning, prior to citizens’ walks, bicyle rides, and runs to various events. Help add strength to the movement to save ourselves. Join an action!

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